The Midnight Library transcript

© Bimbo Media

00:03

Holly: This is Bimbo Book Club with Holly.

00:12

Harley: And Harley. Hello, everybody, and welcome to our first episode of 2023.

00:19

Holly: Yeah, so welcome to 2023.

00:22

Harley: We are recording this from the past, obviously. But we hope everybody had a good new year.

00:27

Holly: And Christmas. I guess we're far ahead.

00:31

Harley: We hope everybody's holiday season was spectacular. This week would you like to tell people about what book we're doing, Holly?

00:38

Holly: Yes. So, we're doing The Midnight Library by Matt Haig. A number one best-selling author, who has also written children's books, business books, like a whole eclectic collection of quite the wordsmith.

00:55

Harley: Yes. Quite the wordsmith. So, we decided to do The Midnight Library, because it focuses on, I guess, what we these days pretty casually call the multiverse. And we thought that would be kind of a nice touch for everybody still probably committing to their New Year's resolutions.

01:13

Holly: Yeah, it does kind of feel very New Years-y. It’s like fresh start-y. The whole book about fresh starts.

01:21

Harley: Well, I think it's about letting go of regrets. And I think that there's something about that end-of-year, start-of-year period that's letting go of what you didn't achieve in the previous year, and then focusing on what you want to achieve for the next year.

01:35

Holly: Yeah, letting go of all the guilt and the shame and everything that comes with not achieving those things that we set out to achieve.

01:42

Harley: Yeah, absolutely. So, what did you think of The Midnight Library?

01:45

Holly: So, I've actually read it twice now. So, the first time I read it was probably about 12 months ago, very early in 2021. I believe it was actually the free Audible book for January 2021. I think.

02:00

Harley: I'll take your word for it.

02:02

Holly: Might have been 2020. I don't remember. Anyway, I remember downloading it through Audible because it was free and listening to it. And I really liked it. But at that time, I think I was in a little bit of a different headspace. And I was very much more into like, personal development. And I was reading a lot of personal development books. I feel like I've kind of progressed through that phase. I'm still doing a lot of personal work, but maybe not in as corny of a way as this book.

02:34

Harley: I think it's also worth I mean, because I know your secondary read was when we decided to do it for the podcast, which was my first reading of it. It's probably worth also pointing out that in between that time has been when obviously Multiverse of Madness, but more importantly, Everything Everywhere All at Once came out. Obviously, it's a movie, not a book. But I do think that Everything Everywhere All at Once dealt with very similar themes, but did it in a way that honestly like, it's no insult to Matt Haig, to say this, like I think it was so spectacular that everything falls short next to it. I just cannot rave about that film enough. So, I wonder how much that secondary reading that feeling of it being a little bit patronizing or a little bit childish? I don't think all of it came from this. But I do wonder how much of that sense of its kind of not being as good as the first time you read it came from somebody's doing the same themes and the same concept, but in a significantly more spectacular way again, because I think Everything Everywhere All at Once was so spectacularly done that everything fell short.

03:39

Holly: Yeah, I think it's part of that I'm in a very different headspace. I still found it very warm and fuzzy, I still found it quite an easy and a good read. I did find it a lot cornier this time and a little bit cringe-worthy in some spots, particularly the way that the main character Nora relates to her social media, like I found that quite cringy. But I guess that's partly because as a society, we've kind of moved away from using Facebook in the way that it was described in the book, I guess. But yeah, we will definitely be discussing the story and going through some spoilers, but there's not really too… we can't spoil this book, I don't think.

04:19

Harley: No, I feel like it's fairly obvious what it is. And I mean, the outcome is obviously never going to be she decides to die, and it’s done. The end.

04:28

Holly: So, for those who haven't read the book, it's essentially Nora Seed is our main character. She is just having the worst day of life.

04:38

Harley: I would say she's suicidally depressed.

04:41

Holly: Yeah, so she's extremely depressed. And then it's just the tipping point this day she's lost her job. She's lost her cat. Cat has died.

04:48

Harley: If you still haven't figured it out by now. Trigger warning, trigger warning for the cat.

04:51

Holly: Oh, yeah. And then she just makes this decision to die. And so, she essentially commits suicide, wakes up in The Midnight Library.

05:05

Harley: So, it's a kind of limbo, a space between where she can see all the possibilities of all the lives she could have led, which is where we go back to Everything Everywhere All at Once where it's like every seed of every decision. And yes, we did pick up on the name thing. But the like, every decision that you make has limitless opportunities and kind of can spiral into multiple outcomes.

05:28

Holly: Yeah, so there's just those sliding doors moments.

05:30

Harley: It’s the what ifs. What if I'd done this? Or What if I'd done that? And she gets to experience those lives.

05:37

Holly: So, she's presented with the book of regrets, which is a book of, you guessed it, all the regrets of her life. These regrets vary from like, I regret not going to the gym on this day to I regret leaving my fiancé at the altar kind of thing.

05:51

Harley: I really liked the idea of the flickering regrets, like the things that stick it in and add regret, where it's like she hadn't quite decided how she felt on it. But like, some of the words on the pages were flickering as she read them. And that was because the regret hadn't fully set in yet.

06:07

Holly: I really liked that. One of those regrets that flickered in and out was I regret having children or not having children. Yeah, she hadn't decided if she really wanted to have children or not.

06:19

Harley: Yeah, so there was a part of her that was like, I don't regret this at all. And then there was a part of her that was like, I'm sad for not having taken this opportunity to have children. Yeah. And so that kind of flickering in and out. And I thought that was like it was a good visual. But it also was a good moment in the book.

06:33

Holly: Yeah. So, she works her way through all these different books that are in the library. So, each book in the library relates to a regret from the book of regrets, she's able to undo these regrets…

06:46

Harley: Not necessarily to undo the regrets but to experience the life without that regret where she made the other choice. So, for example, very early on she in her life, she quit swimming. So, she was like a champion swimmer, ready to go to the Olympics, or that kind of on track to go to the Olympics, all that kind of stuff. And she ended up quitting it for a variety of reasons. And so, one of her regrets was not having followed that path through to its end. So, one of the lives is the life where she doesn't have that regret, because she made the choice to stick with swimming. So, it's both that choice and regret thing.

07:18

Holly: Yeah. So, she's kind of just dropped into these lives. So, there are some funny moments where she has to, like figure out this life and kind of improvise for a period of time. So, there's a few funny moments. And then ultimately, at the end of the novel, she's experienced a bunch of different lives. And she makes the conscious decision to go back to her life, which was obviously always the point.

07:39

Harley: And I did find out a little bit. So, there's a point where, just to backtrack a little bit. So, the library essentially is like a limbo space and is projected based on the person who is in it. So, she sees a library with her high school librarian in it. So yes, what's her name?

07:56

Holly: Mrs. Elm.

07:57

Harley: Mrs. Elm was her high school librarian who we kind of made at the start of the book. Yeah, but so when we reference Mrs. Elm, in The Midnight Library, that's who that is. But there's a point where Mrs. Elm says to her, I think quite early on is the like, when you find the life, you're meant to lead, you won't end up back in the library. And so, she's leaving some really good lives but then ending up back in the library and she's like I don’t understand, what's going on? And that's one of those moments where I think the story is quite on the nose because you're like clearly you were meant to realize that the life, you're meant to live is the one you were originally in.

08:28

Holly: Yeah, so as soon as you feel a sense of disappointment with the book life that you're living then you return to the library. And it’s always midnight in the library and all the new lives start from midnight. So, essentially the time that she died in her original life, well I guess the time she has made the decision to die because she wakes up and doesn't die.

08:51

Harley: Yeah, so I guess in that like near miss so that almost death, again state of limbo, the state of in between.

08:58

Holly: Which I really liked the first time I read this book. I really love that concept. I loved how it played out I loved the way he written it the way he described it. I thought was wonderful. Actually, didn't realize this was written by a man until I'd read it a second time. Yeah, could be because the audio is narrated by a woman as a female main character. But it took me until the second reading to be like, Oh, okay. Yeah, I really liked that, and I think upon the second reading, comparing it to Everything Everywhere All at Once, it doesn't hit the same because that was done so well.

09:33

Harley: I think to this one does have a little bit of I think I described it to you the other day as a bit of a Go Ask Alice quality where as much as it's I mean, to be fair, Go Ask Alice was presented as nonfiction when it was in fact fiction. When it was originally published. I'm not sure how they do it now. But it's a fictional story, told in a way that's clearly supposed to be educational. While being like No, no, I'm not trying to be lecture-y, but there's still just a hint of that.

10:00

Holly: It definitely feels like there are specific quotes in this book that Matt Haig has written to be pulled out of the book and used as like inspirational quotes. So, one of the lives, Nora delivers a TED talk. And the whole talk is meant to be improvised, but it feels very, like he wanted to do a TED talk. And so, he's written it into his book so that he could do a TED talk on depression. And yeah, it did feel a little on the nose. Some of it, I still really enjoyed it, I still felt very warm and fuzzy at the end of it.

10:33

Harley: But I feel like it's one of those ones that to me, I think that people who are actually in that state of depression, and especially that suicidal depression, either will read it and be like, Oh, my God, it's so profound. Or they'll read it and be like, You condescending fuck. And there's no in between. Like they will 100% fall on either side of that fence.

10:51

Holly: Absolutely. And I think that's reflected in a lot of the reviews as well.

10:55

Harley: And like, I certainly think the intention was good. And I do think that the execution was good. And I think that that's maybe something with, again, Everything Everywhere All at Once is that that felt profound, because it wasn't trying to lecture, and it had those truly ridiculous moments. Like I remember the first time I saw that movie, where you've got the, like, even before you see the end result but the like the butt plug trophies, and the like, all that kind of thing, where there's that level of ridiculousness.

11:21

Holly: The fucking googly eyes on everything.

11:23

Harley: It's like, it's so ridiculous. And the fact that the butt plug trophy actually is a smoking gun. But there's this level of just such absurdity that helps to ground something that otherwise would be a little bit like of oh for fuck’s sake. It's like it's so profound that you need to balance it out with something that's so ridiculous. And I feel like this does feel a little bit more like somebody's giving a like you’ll be right! That I know. I mean, I've been lucky enough to not ever experience that level of depression. But especially if you look at members of my family who have that, I definitely take after, I 100% would fall into the Can you not condescend to me right now? camp. And I'm not in that headspace where I was able to read it without that kind of thing. But I do think that there was a bit of an air of being lectured to. But if you took that out, it's a really lovely story.

12:12

Holly: Yeah. So, in the novel, we’re introduced to Hugo, who is another person who is in the same situation as Nora. So, I think they call it sliders. Yeah, I think they call themselves sliders because they're sliding between the lives.

12:26

Harley: Yeah, I think Hugo calls them sliders. And she just absorbs that.

12:29

Holly: Yeah, and it works. So, he is not in a library. He is in a video store.

12:34

Harley: So, this is where before I mentioned that it's a limbo space that is projected upon like by the person who is in that space. So, he obviously doesn't have the same connection with books that Nora does. So, he sees a video store instead of a library. And obviously, he doesn't see her high school librarian.

12:56

Holly: He's got his video, clerk. Is it video store? Video game store? Video store. So, if you were in it, you’d get a library?

13:06

Harley: I’d get a library for sure. It's actually got some, I don't know if this is on purpose. But do you know much about the Akashic records? So, it's like a spiritual concept that it's a record of everything that has been is or ever will be. And originally, it was kind of conceived obviously, as like a library kind of concept. Because like, I've seen modern paganism, talk about it as a, like a computer where you can Google anything ever. But obviously, the very original versions of that were kind of a library or book or whatever. And there are some notes of that, where, obviously, each library or video store or whatever is specific to the person. But the idea is that there is infinite possibility. And so, there are some notes of like, I did notice a little bit of that kind of thing that I was like, Oh, that's interesting. Like, I don't know if that's on purpose, but it is an interesting kind of parallel, I guess.

13:55

Holly: Yeah. So, while it feels like a very sort of novel idea, it's obviously not.

14:00

Harley: And even though, they talk a little bit about the quantum physics, quantum physics kind of accepts a multiverse at this point, which is deeply fascinating, and a whole, like, thing we could go down. But I think he's also why it's now starting to appear in more and more stories is because it is becoming certainly—it's on the edges of science, but it is becoming more and more apparent that it appears to be the reality of the existence that we're in. But there's the quantum physics thing, but the way that that spirals out also is really interesting, because the idea of a tree motif is repeated in a lot of religions. So obviously, in Norse religion, there's the World Tree that like each of the worlds is upon. And you've got the norn at the bottom of the tree, tending to it and all that kind of stuff. But even in the is it the remember the name of so in, like, I want to say Judaism, there's all the names of God and the way that they're presented. It doesn't actually look like a tree to me, but it's supposed to represent a tree. There's the tree of life, even if you look at human design charts, they mimic that same kind of pattern. And so, it's really interesting that from a spiritual thing, and I mean, human design is quite modern. But then if you look at something like Norse religion, it's decidedly not modern. That idea of things branching out into infinity has obviously been a concept forever. So, it seems to be kind of some sort of fundamental human understanding that we're circling back around to with science. Yeah, that there's no end, and I think that's really interesting. But instead of kind of really focusing on that Nora is a philosopher, so a lot of the quantum physics stuff. She's like, Oh, that's interesting. Anyway, the philosopher so and so I always thought this about life. And to be fair, she is somebody who studied philosophy, so it makes sense for her character. But that does again, also feel like Matt Haig has got a background in. I was about to say psychology, I think he does.

15:51

Holly: I think he's written some like, self-help books as well.

15:59

Harley: But I meant philosophy. As you probably gathered. Yeah, there's a little bit of that I'm just nitpicking. I'm just picking some profound philosophical quotes around just showing off my philosophy knowledge.

16:08

Holly: There's only a few philosophers that are mentioned. And they are mentioned several times, so it doesn't feel like a well-rounded knowledge of philosophy, but like a nitpicked.

16:16

Harley: And it kind of works because I kind of get the vibe from Nora that she is that person who's like, as the philosopher so and so said, but by the same token is like this, I think, because you can kind of see what the author is trying to do with it the work, it reads a little bit as him being like that. And I don't know if that's accurate or not, but it feels like that, if that makes sense.

16:36

Holly: Yeah, it's like, okay, so is it, Matt? Or is it Nora that has an Instagram full of sunsets with philosophy quotes under them?

16:42

Harley: Right. And I think that's the hard thing about this book is I feel like you can still see the mechanics. And I think that that's something that particularly because the mechanics are, like, I mean, he's trying to make a point. And you can see him trying to make that point instead of him just making that point.

17:00

Holly: Yeah, it feels like it was almost written with the goal to have year twelves in English, analyze it.

17:07

Harley: Or to like bulk sell it to psych wards. I feel like that was probably my biggest issue with it is I feel, like I said, you can see the kind of mechanics of it. And I think that most books, even bad books, you usually can't see the mechanics of what they're doing so clearly, so you often see elements of mechanics, so something that we have both read, but there isn't an episode on, but Faerie Tales, you can see the mechanics of how he's writing in terms of the, like, you get notes of Stephen King kind of early on, or there's moments.

17:43

Holly: To clarify, we're talking about the Raymond E. Feist version of Faerie Tales not the Stephen King version of Fairy Tales, which has just been released.

17:51

Harley: Yeah. I didn't know that Stephen King had released it, but he's just yeah, like, Thanks for making that sentence more confusing. Mr. King. Actually, I was reading a thing on I will circle back to this. But I was already a thing on like, book Reddit. That was like, You guys do realize that if multiverses are real there is another version of this universe where Tabitha King didn't pull Carrie out of the wastepaper basket and go, where's the rest of it? I want to finish it. Because he threw it out. Yeah, this isn't working for me. There is a universe out there, where there's a bunch of students who have like this old jaded English teacher called Mr. King who like secretly wanted to be a novelist, but never lived his dream and just had an ordinary, probably fairly shitty, because teachers in America aren’t treated well life, in Bangor, and that's it. That's the whole story. And we just happen to live in a universe where she did pull carry out of the wastepaper basket and did go, Where's the rest of it? And forced him to finish it.

18:50

Harley: There's a universe out there was a universe out there where he did not take one look at Tabitha and go, Love of my life, lock that down. Because I mean, even he is like, I couldn't have done it without her.

19:02

Holly: There's probably a universe out there where he is just a straight-up serial killer instead of writing about these things.

19:09

Harley: Probably, anyway, the Raymond E. Feist version is an early work for him. So, you can see some of the mechanics, but I would say once the story gets going, the story is just it's on a roll kind of thing. So, yes, obviously, he's picked apart every sentence with an editor because that's the nature of writing. But when you're reading it, once he kind of gets to his point, you can feel that he's just telling a story. And it is a good story. And I'm pretty sure that's kind of the takeaway that I certainly had. I'm speaking for you, but I think you had as well where it was like, there were nitpicky bits about it. But once he got on a roll was like, you know what, all things considered, it was a good story. Whereas with this, I feel like it was on a roll from fairly early on, but from beginning to the end, you could see the mechanics of what he was trying to do. Yeah, and I think that storytelling is one of those things where you want to be good enough at it, that it looks easy. So, it's like, you know, watching a gymnast or a dancer or things like that, where they're performing in that way where you're like, Wow, I could do that. Like, it looks so easy. It looks so straightforward or like whatever they're doing, it's like, wow, I could totally do that. And then you try your luck. That is so hard. You made it look not only easy but graceful. So hard that I can't even do it in a non-graceful way. What the hell? And writing has a little bit of that quality to it. And I think you can see him kind of remembering the steps of the dance.

20:36

Holly: Yeah, it’s almost like he had an outcome in mind. And the outcome wasn't the story. As such, it was how do I create this outcome and build a story around it?

20:47

Harley: Yeah, how do I tell a  feel-good story for depressed people, rather than I have this great idea. And I think it's a lovely story. And yeah, like I said, I don't think that it's necessarily bad. And I think if you are the right kind of person, in a sad state, I think that it is a book that will feel really profound and probably be very helpful for you. I just think that it often will also be given to people who it will have the opposite effect where it's like, you don't know me, I'm gonna go do what I was going to do anyway, you asshole.

21:16

Holly: And I think for people who aren't necessarily depressed, it's easy is just a cute little cozy feel-good story. It's got a romance. A couple of romances, actually. And it's got highs, it's got lows.

21:33

Harley: And I don’t think it’s a bad thing to ask those questions about like, What do I regret or what would have happened in other lifetimes? Or the takeaway that Nora gets for a lot of things is that she matters more than she thinks she does, even in her original life. And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Because she does start off the book in that space of like, Nobody would miss me when I'm gone, or I've failed everybody or things like that. And she discovers where she hasn't. So, she thinks she's failed her brother by not being in his band, because she left the band right before they're about to get a record deal. And she lives that life, and he's died of a drug overdose, because being famous has exacerbated the problems he already had, by giving him such access to sex, drugs, and rock and roll that he rock and rolls right off the cliff edge, so to speak, which is fairly common for people who have blown up in that kind of way. So, it's not an unreasonable outcome. But she's felt like she's failed her brother. And then she gets the outcome where she hasn't failed her brother. And actually, yeah, better off in the universe where she did quit the band. But also, there's the kid that she teaches piano. So, when she's in her perfect life, she's got the surgeon, husband, and they've got a beautiful daughter, and everything's lovely. And she's like, you know, a professor at the University she loves, and they've got a nice house in London and everything.

22:54

Holly: She’s writing her philosophy book on her favorite philosopher.

22:57

Harley: Everything's amazing. She goes back to her hometown and runs into this kid. And he's continued down a path of petty crime and being a not-good kid that was stopped because he had a piano teacher - her. So, because he found a passion to redirect his focus. He didn't go down that path. And again, it is that on the nose stuff, but it is that kind of thing that I mean, a lot of people say when they jump off bridges and things like that, they realized on the way down that they're like, the people who survived obviously.

23:29

Holly: Sorry, didn't realize you're a psychic. And you could commune with the dead. But yes.

23:36

Harley: The people who survived jumping off things often say that on the way down, they realized there was no problem in their life that couldn't be solved, except for the fact that they just jumped off the side of a bridge or a building or whatever. And so, I think it is that moment of kind of realizing that you matter more than you think you do. And I don't think that's a bad message to have, which is why I'm like, listen it’s a little bit on the nose, how he's doing, but I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that he's doing it. And indeed, the nice message.

24:04

Holly: Yeah, there's definitely a very specific demographic for this book. And it's probably just not us. Or it was the Holly of 12 or 24 months ago or whatever. But it's not me now.

24:13

Harley: I don't even think it's necessarily not us, because I did enjoy it. I'm just very conscious of and maybe this is because I've worked in kind of arenas where they'll do like one prescription for everybody thing. I can see a lot of halfway houses and mental health facilities or things like that getting everybody to read it and being like, see, it's so profound, and for the people who feel condescended to by that kind of thing, having them actually make that feeling worse.

24:37

Holly: Yeah, it just kind of feels disingenuous there.

24:42

Harley: And I think that it's not Matt Haig’s fault, and he's certainly not asked for it to be given to everybody ever, as far as I'm aware. But I think there is that risk there with these kinds of books. And also, with calling these kinds of books profound, when it's not. And I think maybe that's one of the things that I liked about Everything Everywhere All At Once is that it wasn't some, like, amazing discovery that she was so great or things like that. It was just a like, in all the universes, and all the things that I have achieved and all that kind of stuff, like I love my family.

25:16

Holly: And you may find our way back to each other always.

25:19

Harley: And happiness in the end isn't about the big opportunities that we've missed, or all the possibilities that are out there, or any of that kind of stuff. It's about the simple things. So, the happiest character in that movie is her husband, who's just trying to run a laundromat and love his wife and raise a good daughter and he's unhappy because he can feel that he's failing her by not being everything all at once. Yeah, but I think the thing that makes that feel profound is that it doesn't have that. See, it's all good in the end.

25:52

Holly: Yeah, because it's not all good in the end, it’s better, but it's not all good.

25:56

Harley: The same between the mother and daughter right at the end of that is that like, it is fucked up. But I love you. Yeah, like, everything is fucked. And it is shitty. And I'm probably going to screw up again. And I get it. Nothing that is, but if nothing matters, everything matters, and you matter, I just think it didn't have that note to it to me. Whereas, like I said, giving it to the right people I think would be a really lovely thing. And I think it is a lovely story. So, it could be, it could feel very profound. So anyway, I don't know. I feel like it sounds like I'm being really hard on him. I think in the same way that Go Ask Alice was kind of a staple read kind of thing. And I think backfired in terms of it was like, drugs are all bad. And as soon as you have one drug, you're gonna go off the deep end, and you'll be an addict forever, never recover. I know a lot of people in response to that kind of Reefer Madness approach, you know, back in the day tried something and went, Oh, I didn't die from one line of blow. Yeah, so all of this is bullshit. So instead of taking this stuff that is true about the dangers of drug use, which is like, there is the risk of addiction, and there is the risk of things being cut with something else, and all the kind of the damage that you can do to your body and all that kind of stuff. All those things are valid, but because they were told in that way of Reefer Madness and Go Ask Alice, people who felt condescended to by that kind of stuff went, Fuck you. And probably some of them went harder than they would have otherwise. And I think it's got that same kind of risk, I guess, which wouldn't be such an issue if it was just a feel-good story. But instead of just being a feel-good story, it's very obvious that he has a message about being suicidal, or recovering from being suicidal, I guess, to be more accurate.

27:45

Holly: So, is there a particular life that you liked, which was your favorite life of all the lives that Nora Seed lived? Which one was your favorite?

27:54

Harley: I think and possibly just because we spent the most time in it, I think the perfect life, because it was like having everything can be perfect on paper, and it doesn't always feel good.

28:08

Holly: Yeah, if you're right or so obviously, Nora has not dropped into all of these lives. And she has very little or no knowledge of how she's got there and what she's doing that life. And I quite liked the way, so Molly is the daughter in that life. So, there are some lives where she's got children most lives, she doesn't have children, but the lives where she does have children, she's not in them for very long. So, this is the longest time she spends with a child. And very quickly, she’s dropped into this world. It's the middle of the night, they're in bed, she wakes up. And there's a tiny human there being like, I'm scared. But yeah, so she asks Molly to play game with her. And this game is just answer these questions and it says silly things like, What's daddy's name? What's my name?

28:56

Harley: What's does daddy do for a living?

28:58

Holly: What does mummy do? And I felt like that was a clever way of giving us that backstory. Rather than the usual I'm gonna Google myself.

29:08

Harley: She's like, Oh, I can just google myself in every life, which I feel is a bit, The fuck you can.

29:13

Holly: So, in some lives, like the rockstar life or the life where she goes to the Olympics, yes.

29:18

Harley: But she Googles herself in like, boring lives, too.

29:22

Holly: Yeah, it was she and she searches for social media.

29:25

Harley: It was a cute way of doing it. Because like her daughter was like, What are you doing? And she's like, I'm just trying to get you to calm down. Like you’ve had a bad dream. And we're just talking just like general facts. I know the answers to these questions, but I'm just trying to get you to focus. And I kind of like it too, because that's actually so one of the things that they've studied about people having panic attacks or being in a fear state or things like that is essentially that your executive function brain and your like lizard brain can't operate at the same time. So, one of the best ways to stop a panic attack. That's why they've got the, name one thing you can smell, name two things you can hear, name three things you can see, go through all the senses is because essentially it forces function back into the executive brain, which slows a panic attack in its tracks because panic attack does not exist in the executive brain, it’s all central nervous system. So just kind of forcing focus back into the part of the brain that will allow that panic attack to subside. So, it's like it's a valid technique for calming someone down. But it's also her being like, What life am I in? What’s the dog's name again?

30:28

Holly: And there was this moment and I thought it was almost going to be like a full circle moment kind of thing, but it didn't happen. So, Molly, the daughter has had a nightmare because Ash, the husband had shown her a video about bears. And then in another life, Nora is working, I thought it was gonna be the bloody like polar bear. Right? There's another life Nora is working. Is it Antarctica?

30:54

Harley: No, it's north. Arctic North.

30:57

Holly: Yes, something like that. Arctic North, they are an expedition for some reason that I'm she's a spotter. And she's a spotter. So, she's gonna look out for these bears. And she has this altercation with the fucking polar bear, where she’s banging on a pot and yelling and screaming.

31:12

Harley: Her life flashes before her eyes, which is pretty funny, given that she's already dead and living in an alternate reality.

31:19

Holly: Well, I think this near-death experience in a life was kind of putting that into perspective. And that's kind of the first time that she was like, No, I actually think I want to leave, I definitely don't have to be eaten by a polar bear.

31:29

Harley: I think that's probably one of the things that I found a little bit frustrating about it, is that every life that we were in had to be profound. And I actually kind of liked the actually the life that she had with is it Dan, her ex-husband that she left at the altar?

31:45

Holly: Her ex-fiancé. One where they the country pub?

31:49

Harley: So, what I liked about that is that it was just a continuation of the person he already was. So, it was like in beating myself up about leaving, about not marrying him, I have romanticized our relationship instead of being honest about who he was. And the fact that we were never going to work because all of these character flaws that have come out now that we're older and married, and he's not performing as much, and we're drunker and all that stuff, these character flaws were always there. And the only kind of real profound takeaway from that, is that she kind of moved on with is that in the lives where she has left him, he's always like, I can never live without you. And in that life, she's like, well, when you got me, you cheated on me. So clearly, some of it is that performative acts aspect for you. But it was like, it wasn't this big, profound realization, it was just a like, I knew who you were. And it's kind of on me that I have been overlooking who you were because you gave me all this. Like, it's like that people show you who they are. I was like, you were showing me who you were. And I've made up a different version of you in my head to be kind, but it's actually unkind to both of us. But yeah, it was like every life had to be this, like deep, profound realization. And I think a lot of deep, profound realizations are surprisingly mundane.

33:05

Holly: I think that's why I liked Hugo so much. So, the other slider, because he had been doing it for a lot longer than Nora, and kind of just was like, have fun with it. Like just try a life. I think he had said that the longest he'd been in a life was four or five days or something. But I think I’d find that exhausting. I don't know that I could live a new life every couple of days.

33:32

Harley: I don't think I could do it every few days. But I feel like I could drop in for like a couple months and then drop out again.

33:37

Holly: But some of these lives. She's in them for like, an hour. Some of them she's in them for minutes. And it's sure I think that would be so exhausting, emotionally, and mentally draining to be like, cool. Where am I? What am I doing? When she arrived in Australia, wasn't she in a pool? She's dropped into a pool like, I'm swimming. Okay, great. But don't drown. Although, speaking of the Australia life, I did like how her body changed in each life. And yeah, there was one life where she was like, I'm just gonna say how many pushups I can do? Oh my God, I can do this. Her Olympian life, you know, I'm actually really strong in this life and how she liked the way that that felt.

34:24

Harley: And I think that it was like there were also lives where she like she'd aged in different ways. And so, it wasn't just that in some life, she was fitter than in others. It was the different kinds of fitness.

34:37

Holly: And in the perfect life, the C-section scar.

34:41

Harley: But also the way she'd aged into a body that was used to wearing dresses when she was with Dan and they're like, you know that like perfect pub owner's wife and with maybe a little bit of that we drink too much bit around the middle but actually still quite strong and yeah, like I think that they were really lovely touches like that, that if you just took out some of that obvious pontificating, it could have been more, like I said, I think I just like I couldn't not see the mechanics of what he was trying to do. And that took away from the story for me because the story is not a bad story. And I think we all have those moments of wonder and possibility and the like, what if I absolutely, I mean, I always feel like I'd be really paranoid that like, I wouldn't get Peanut or something if I went too far into an alternate life.

35:26

Holly: Well, that said, like she one of the first lives that she lived was she wished for a life where Voltaire the cat hadn't.

35:37

Harley: I think she's still alive or something along she hadn't let him out that night.

35:39

Holly: She hadn't let him out that night.

35:41

Harley: Right at the start of the book before she committed suicide, Ash who is the surgeon and her husband in her perfect life, but in her regular life is someone that she knows he's asked her out, she said no to the coffee date, but he's a nice guy. He finds her cat on the street. And he knocks on her door and helps her bury the cat and all that kind of stuff. And they just assume that Volts has been hit by a car. And what she discovers when she says, I want to live where I didn't let Volts out, is that it actually was a heart condition.

36:10

Holly: Yeah. And he was gonna die that time anyway, so she like it wasn't a fault of her as an owner.

36:13

Harley: Yeah. In fact, the best years of his life was spent with her because he was a rescue with a bad heart.

36:20

Holly: Yeah, that's almost more traumatic finding this cold cat under your bed.

36:26

Harley: Especially because she wakes up in the life where he's already dead. Like, she doesn't get a little bit of time with him or anything. It’s just enjoy your life with your frozen dead cat.

36:35

Holly: Yeah, because like we said, before these lives start from midnight. He was already dead by then. His expiration date was before that.

36:44

Harley: Rough, very rough. Do you have any big what if moments in your life?

36:47

Holly: Many.

36:48

Harley: Any that you feel comfortable sharing with the internet?

36:51

Holly: No.

36:56

Harley: That's what I thought. I don't necessarily think all are bad like, I had a really nice conversation with my mum a little while ago, where, because we were talking about how being diagnosed with ADHD, but then also, medicating has made a really big difference for me. And she was kind of like, I feel bad. Because I know even if I had known about ADHD, or about the fact that you have and the way that it expresses itself in you, and all that kind of stuff, my mum is difficult to get to take Panadol level of medication adverse, so she never would have medicated me as a kid. Yeah, I had to go to her kind of like, you were a dedicated enough parent that in deciding not to medicate me, you would have gone because I'm making this decision, I have to give you every other tool I can possibly give you, in order to justify the fact that I'm choosing not to do this. So, I would have had a lot of behavior modification stuff that probably would have made my approach to life and my way of achieving things very, very different that mean that I might not be reliant on medication. Now, in order to reteach my brain, how to do those things in a way that actually works for my brain. And I think that there's some elements of I don't want to off myself to try it. You know, there's elements of the like, it would be nice to experience those lives and then come back to this one, because I'm pretty happy all things considered with the life I got.

38:17

Holly: But you may never have gone down your career paths. Because of that, you know, that dopamine hits or the career path that you chose, which means we may never have met.

38:25

Harley: And I got Peanut while I was in this industry. That's how I paid for him. He got meningitis when he was a puppy. Every single time I pay the vet bill be like, Thank God I'm a stripper, thank God I’m a stripper. Because I'd be going into work every night being like I just spent $1,500 on my dog again, got to go in that back. I'm still burning through my savings, because its good luck making that seven nights a week at the club, but I could go in and be like, I'm really stressed about my dog. And I had enough regulars by that stage that they will like, you know, I had people who normally would never get lap dances or things like that be like, I don't want a lap dance, but here's 20 bucks. That helped for so even if I got Peanut, would I necessarily have been able to go through the medical care that he needed for that process? And so like, I wouldn't change my life, but I do understand that like, it would be nice to be able to just like dip into a library, try some shit and be like, Okay, now I'll go back to my regular, I guess want to say, yeah, how does that outcome affect things? How does that make stuff different? And I suppose it's that, from that going into that self-help psychology side of things, those kinds of stories that are programmed into us from a very young age or from life experiences or things like that. It's like, what's the life where I don't have that story built in? So you know, what is the life where instead of having a mum be like, who's like, Why the hell can't you just clean your room, clean your shit up, which is a reasonable request, having a mum who's like Okay, so we need to make it like a challenge or a play thing or I need to just put like Mario Kart music on in the background to help your brain focus.

39:55

Holly: Mario Kart music.

39:59

Harley: Yes, sdo, because of the light levels of trauma, “Rainbow Road” is particularly effective for getting me in an anxious enough to get shit done, but not so anxious that I can't function state. Watch Holly quietly plays “Rainbow Road” soundtracks in the background, it's not good admin music, but it's good like cleaning music. Zelda background music is good admin music.

40:23

Holly: Okay, so let me just write this down.

40:26

Harley: But it is that like having all of that energy that I put into learning how to hack my brain and that I've put into kind of reframing those stories, because I do have a lot of stories about like, I'm just lazy, or I just can't do that kind of stuff. I just don't finish things or I'm flaky or whatever. Being able to experience lives where those stories don't exist. And it's like, again, like I said, not anybody's fault. Like I was a kid in the ’90s. If you weren't Bart Simpson you, like ADHD wasn't a thing. It just wasn't for a kid in the ’90s. And not Bart Simpson, because I got the other kind of, I got the inattentive kind. But yeah, like when you look at all of that kind of stuff, and there was there no kind of possibility of that being discovered. So, it's no fault of my mum's, but the alternate reality where that information was available and accessible to her and she had that information, she would have done all that brain-hacking stuff before I had a chance to develop these stories. So yeah, like I said, it's not anybody's fault. But the reality is that I have those kind of internal click-whirr stories that play. And I think being able to jump into your alternate lives and just feel how it feels to not have that story.

41:32

Holly: But wouldn't you still have some of that story? Some of that story is going to travel with you into this new life, to see the product of the life where you didn't have that story, but you'd still internalize a lot of it.

41:42

Harley: But also, she like I think in the same way she feels physiologically different. I think our bodies are connected our emotional body, our like spiritual body, our physiological body and all that kind of stuff. I very much believe that they're connected. So, I think that you would feel that disconnect. So, you would the stories that you and I, it's maybe a little bit unfair, because I'm using stories that I have pulled apart because of the ADHD diagnosis. But we all have stories that we're unconscious of. So, imagine stepping into different lines going like what if and going Okay, so it's not just the I'm flaky story. There's also this other story that I haven't picked up on, and now I'm aware of it.

42:21

Holly: So, it's like waking up one morning and being like, Oh, my back feels good. I didn't realize it was sore. Yeah, I get it.

42:29

Harley: Yeah, I think that yeah, that experience of living different lives is more interesting to me than like quitting this one and having another one because I think and especially in kind of doing this podcast and all that kind of stuff. That whole trust the dots will connect thing is like, I can see the dots connecting now. Maybe not for everything because there’s certainly plenty of stuff I haven't figured out.

42:53

Holly: Well you drew that dot on the ceiling so it's gonna take a little bit time for us to connect that dot. She literally just looked over the ceiling. It’s a metaphorical dot.

42:57

Harley: Well, you were pointing at it. So, I was like, Have I erased a memory?

43:06

Holly: You did not actually draw a dot on my ceiling.

43:08

Harley: Thank God because I would just like, I'm sorry, because I've not said sorry about that.

43:13

Holly: Metaphorical dot.

43:16

Harley: But I think in terms of like, like, and I'm just gonna keep using this podcast as an example. How often have both of us really gone, Oh God, I don't know how to do this. And you're like, Oh, I do. I've done it for something before I had to learn it for something at work. Or you’re like, But I don't know how to do this. We're gonna have to find someone who knows that. And I'm like, I know. That's me. It's me. I did a thing once. And so now I know this thing. Yeah, really, I have that skill. And about things that are really random for both of us, where it really is kind of moments where there's some stuff that makes perfect sense. Like it makes good sense that we're both good copywriters, and that we can pull that stuff out. It makes good sense that you are pretty across how to set up the business partnership and all that stuff, given that you have done like you've had businesses with other people, you've got an accountant in the family, all that kind of, so you've got the people to ask those questions to. So, there's some of that stuff where it's like, Oh, yeah, it makes sense that you'd know that. But both of us have had moments where we're like, How the hell do you know this? Like, How the hell do you have the answer to this question?

44:13

Holly: I mean, it's not podcast-related. But the other day when you were like, I just got this ring. I don't know if I made a mistake, or if they made a mistake, but a little bit too big. And I was like, I can fix that. I can resize it. I can resize the ring. Yeah, I get my blowtorch out. I can fix that. That's a bizarre skill that.

44:31

Harley: Yeah. And I think that we've had a lot of that like, one of the reasons why making this has largely been in a real kind of relaxed state, across the board, mostly. Aside from that one launch week, where we both decided to travel. You know, it's a great time to launch a podcast when neither of us is home to do all the podcast stuff.

44:54

Holly: Pro tip: don't launch anything while you're traveling to different time zones. Not together.

45:01

Harley: Yeah, choices were made. Choices were regretted, Harley had no sleep for four days and then slept for a week. It's fine. I'm fine. I was already crazy to begin with. So, I'm not worse. But yeah, I think that there's a lot of that stuff that I think you and I would both say, up until now is like, Why the fuck do I even have this skill? Like, what does this even serve, what purpose can this possibly ever serve in my life? And now he's that like, random thing that we're like…

45:31

Holly: That hyper fixation that I had in 2016. Oh, my God, it's paying off.

45:35

Harley: Listen, I don't want to explain how I know this. But I am gonna go and get my blowtorch. So yeah, I think that all of those like, I guess missed opportunities or things that didn't make sense, and all that kind of stuff. I see how they kind of come together, and how they start to make sense. So, I liked the idea of the midnight library as a personal development tool, but not necessarily a I hate my life tool if that makes sense.

46:00

Holly: Yeah, that makes sense.

46:03

Harley: Well, do you have any other thoughts on The Midnight Library?

46:06

Holly: No.

46:07

Harley: Yeah, I don't know that there's much else to say. I do think that it, like it's a nice read. But there is obviously an agenda there. And it's not as subtle as he thinks it is.

46:19

Holly: And it's just whether you don't care about that agenda, or whether you're offended by it.

46:23

Harley: And, like I said, I don't think it's necessarily inherently bad. I think it's just knowing if you're not the target audience for that, like, I would not recommend this book to my mum.

46:33

Holly: I would recommend this to my mum.

46:36

Harley: And I think it's fairly clear that our mums are pretty different, which is cool. If everybody was the same the world would be boring. So yeah, I think it is a book that your mum can enjoy and have a wonderful time with, and my mum is like, What the hell is this condescending garbage? Never do this again. I will hit you with this book.

46:54

Holly: Well, it's not a huge book, so probably not that painful.

46:59

Harley: To be fair, she wouldn't actually hit me with it. She just tried to hit me with it. Or if she did hit me with it, she'd be like Fuck sorry, I misjudged the distance there. My bad. I was trying to do it like a melodramatic thing. That's where I get it from. Yeah, so, I think it's not a book for everyone.

47:18

Holly: No, it's definitely not a book for everyone. So dear listeners, cozy and cute or just cringe worthy? What did you think if you've read it?

47:27

Harley: And we'd love to hear your New Year's resolutions.

47:30

Holly: Or should we have New Year's resolutions to share them or?

47:34

Harley: Mine is to make a living off this so I never have to work.

47:37

Holly: Oh, that's a good one. That's also mine.

47:42

Harley: My one and only resolution. Yeah, I feel like I'm pretty good across what I eat pretty well. I'm pretty like I'm pretty fit. That said, if I stopped performing, I probably have to work a bit harder, like actually getting exercise. But yeah, I'm like, make more money really is the only thing. Like I said, I'm pretty fit. I'm pretty happy and pretty healthy. So, my only resolution is to build our bimbo empire.

48:07

Holly: Yep, build our bimbo empire. May we do it with ease and be happy while we do it.

48:13

Harley: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode. Once again, we hope that you had a wonderful holiday season, and we hope that you are in fact still enjoying a bit of a break before you have to return to real life because you’ve gotta enjoy it while you can. As always, links, transcripts all the things are available on our website and in the show notes.

48:36

Holly: Bimbos out.

48:37

Harley: Bimbos out.

Daughter of Smoke and Bone transcript

© Bimbo Media

00:00

Holly: This is Bimbo Book Club with Holly.

00:12

Harley: And Harley. Okay, so this week we are doing Daughter of Smoke and Bone by Laini Taylor. Cool. I got her first name wrong before, so I was concerned.

00:27

Holly: You got it this time. I hope.

00:30

Harley: Yeah, questionable. So, this is one I recommended.

00:32

Holly: You did recommend it to me.

00:36

Harley: And it is proof that I don't just try and torture you all the time.

00:39

Holly: Yes, I did enjoy it. I still maintain the fact that you do like to torture me.

00:45

Harley: I didn’t say I don't enjoy torturing you, I said ‘all the time.’

00:46

Holly: Okay, all the time.

00:48

Harley: Okay. Sometimes I’m nice.

00:50

Holly: Yeah. But I feel like when I recommend books to you, I torture you in a different way. Like I torture you emotionally and break your heart a little bit.

00:57

Harley: I feel like this book has heartbreaking moments in it.

01:02

Holly: I don't think it really penetrated as deep as, like, The Invisible Life of Addie LaRue. For example, I feel like that hit me very much in the feels, whereas this is kind of like, oh, yeah, it's heartbreaking, but it's only surface-level heartbreak.

01:18

Harley: I feel like there's elements of the stuff but like, rather than being a heartbreaking story, she does heartbreaking moments really well. So, spoilers ahead. FYI, if you're already here, but I'm about to spoil stuff. So, heads up. So, for example, that like when Kishmish—

01:37

Holly: We're just getting straight into it. Okay, yeah.

01:41

Harley: We'll just cuz I think like, in order to continue this conversation to its logical conclusion, I have to kind of explain what I mean. But yeah, when Kishmish dies, yes, that the heartbreaking it's very much like the dog dies moment, even though Kishmish is not but like, like, you know…

01:58

Holly: He is a bit like a pet isn't he?

02:00

Harley: No but he needs, like that thing in the like, so he's like a shadow bat kind of figure. Yes, he's a bit like a pet. But it's like, I think the way that that's written is that thing where it's like, it's heartbreaking in the like, Oh no, the dog’s gonna die in a movie or whatever. It's like that moment. And I think she does a really good job of that. And I think also Karou’s guilt. So Karou is our main character. And at one stage kind of with her father figure is like questioning him and pushing back against stuff that she doesn't like, you know, why haven't you explained this to me? Why don't I understand what's going on? I like you're hiding things from me. And then it's completely cut off from them and find out that they've all kind of been massacred essentially. That was very heartbreaking. And yes, with like, living with that guilt, and also living with the like, there's a period of time where she is not sure if they're alive or dead and has no way of finding out and I think that whole process is very…

02:54

Holly: Yeah, she conveyed the like, the loss there very well, the not just like, physically lost, but emotionally lost and feeling very, like out of place. Yeah, she did a very good job with that.

03:05

Harley: Yeah. So just to backtrack a little bit and explain the story. I would describe it correctly if you feel like I've missed anything at the end of this. But we start off with Karou, who is an art student with a vivid imagination. So, she's got these art books that everybody loves looking at full of these like weird and wonderful characters. And we find out pretty much from the get-go that she actually hasn't imagined these fantastical creatures that she grew up in a magic shop, where the owner of the magic shop basically lives in another dimension, grants wishes, and is a Chimaera, so is a mix of creatures. So, she grew up with like a woman who's got the torso of a woman, and then the body of a snake, just as an example of one of the Chimaera she grew up with. So, she's just a normal human.

03:54

Holly: Or so we think.

03:56

Harley: But she does inhabit this kind of magical world. And part of the magic shop is that it exists in another dimension, and it has doors that go to different places. So, she can like walk into the magic shop in Prague, which is where she lives and step out of the door in the middle of Paris, or wherever in the wild. And there is another drop-off, which does eventually go through into another world entirely. So, at the start of this story, we see that there are some sightings of angelic beings, I guess. And there are these handprints that keep appearing being burned into the woods or various doors throughout the world. And no matter how much people try and paint over them, or cover them up, whatever, and the handprint burns itself back, almost straight away.

04:40

Holly: And so very quickly find out that these doors with the handprints are actually the portals. So, the doors that we can step through to visit the other worlds.

04:50

Harley: Yeah. So, it’s access to the magic shop. So, it's like they're essentially marking all the ways that the magic shop can access our universe. So, once they've identified all the doors, they essentially burn them all or destroy them all, which is what causes Karou to lose access to Brimstone, who's her father figure in the owner of the magic shop and grantor of wishes. And the rest of her magical friends, I guess.

05:19

Holly: So, I guess the reason why we picked this one, as we mentioned last week, because we didn't really do Christmassy things. And at a stretch, this is Christmassy. Because you’re like, Oh, there’s angelic creatures. Close enough, right?

05:36

Harley: I think that was my exact quote. I don't know if I can do a second Christmas one, but this one's got angels in it. Is that close enough? It's not Christmassy at all. Anyway, it's got angels in it, it's fine. So Merry Christmas round two sort of not really,

05:53

Holly: Not really, not even close. I mean, if we're going to really dig into it, like Christmas was a holiday stolen by pagans, and there were definitely no angels in the pagan celebration.

06:05

Harley: Yes, it's close enough. Well, I feel like The Mists of Avalon was an even bigger stretch.

06:12

Holly: So, the magic in this book is wishes or wishes, which is also kind of Christmasy. We make Christmas however we wish to fat men for you don't have to recall your teeth that we don't have to repeat that hate that.

06:28

Harley: So, there's a sort of currency of wishes. And I can't remember the names of all the… so she names or the different wishes. But essentially, there's like some you can have like small wishes, which are in abundant supply, or you can have like really, really big wishes and the biggest wishes. The only way that you can buy one of the biggest wishes is with an entire set of human teeth that you've ripped out of your own jaw. And it has to be you and it has to be your own teeth. But you also can't like I couldn't be like, hey, Holly, can you rip on my teeth out for me? Why are you crying? So, that will not earn you your big wish? You have to do it yourself? I already don't have all my teeth. So, I'm fucked. Basically. Not all of my teeth grow in my mouth.

07:08

Holly: Where did they grow? 

07:09

Harley: In a lab, I guess. Man-made.

07:11

Holly: Oh, I thought like… I don’t know.

07:20

Harley: I have grown no teeth in my vagina, Holly.

07:24

Holly: So, but it doesn't count if you just like collect all of your baby teeth and be like, Haha, expelled myself wink, wink.

07:31

Harley: And you also can't collect the teeth of the dead. So, they do exchange the teeth of the dead for wishes, but not for the big ones. However, wishes can go awry. And we see that especially with the big ones, even one of the characters that get introduced kind of early-ish in the book. So, the doctor. And I think this is another example of something that she does in a way that's quite sad, are we meet this character that so because Karou has grown up in the magic shop, she's met a lot of these people. And a lot of the people that they deal with are like poachers, and not very nice people who are ripping teeth out of like humans that they're trafficking or animals that they've illegally hunted or any of that kind of stuff. But we meet somebody who used to be a doctor and he'd work in like war zones and things like that. And he would just take the teeth of people who'd already died after having made every effort to save them. You know, the reality of war is there are plenty of times you are too late, and there's nothing you can do, and he would just take those teeth, however, he was desperate for knowledge. So. he ripped out all of his own teeth. He got a big wish he wished for knowledge and he, instead of getting just this fun, infinite wisdom, got himself a fallen angel that attached itself to his shoulders and whispered hideous nothings in his ear. So, he did get his wish, he got knowledge, but it's very much like a genie wish, where he got knowledge in a way that kind of backfired. So instead of being this super smart doctor, man, he became this kind of crazy, homeless pathetic figure. And I think that she does a really good job of kind of through Karou’s eyes describing the way that he was once this really kind man who happened to know a wish monger and then became something through the kind of backfiring power but wish became someone who is very pathetic and miserable and unhappy and all that stuff.

09:19

Holly: But isn't that what they say? The more you know, the unhappier you are.

09:23

Harley: There's nothing quite like being an idiot to keep you happy. I think that that's something that the author does really well is those kinds of, she doesn't flinch from those moments of pathetic-ness, or hideousness, or any of that kind of stuff. And I actually think Razgut is a really interesting character. So, Razgut is the angel, the fallen angel that's attached itself to the doctor. And we initially, it's like invisible to human eyes, but you can I think there's a theme throughout the book that shadows show the truth. So even when something is disguised as a human, you'll often see the truth of it in its shadow or like angels. You and see the shadow of the wings.

10:01

Holly: Which is a very cool visual. And she did explain that very well.

10:07

Harley: But yeah, so you can see that he has this shadow kind of thing but you can't see this thing on his back. And then the moment that Karou meets Akiva who's the kind of angel we follow, you see Razgut get any here's this like, hideous thing that's attached himself to and he's like whispering all these horrible things. And Akiva is the only one who understands him because it turns out he's speaking Angel. And, and she hasn't. So as far as I'm aware, she hasn't finished the series. So, I just listened to them as audiobooks. And I had a whole bunch of driving, and I've gotten further along than you have, but I still there's still stuff that's not resolved. Like they never actually talked about why Razgut was banished or deluded to from the very first book, it's like you angels don't know your own history for like the seraphim should ask more questions. And the doctor I think, flat out says to Akiva at one stage, You should ask him why he's banished. But Akiva is busy being like, He's no angel. He's no seraphim, he's not one of us. And then by the time he questions that stuff, I feel like it goes a frustratingly long time of nobody being like Alright, Razgut spill it. But maybe that's just because I'm an inherently curious person. And if I found a fallen angel, and everybody had kind of been like, how did he get here? Nobody knows. It was for me to stick around. I would be like, Wait, why are you here? Why are you like this? Whodunit? And obviously, it's the nature of a story that they're waiting for some kind of big reveal. But I will admit, I found that frustrating, because that's kind of my very first thing is like, Okay, we've established he's a fallen angel. Why did you get how did you get here? And it exceeds the limitations that I'm willing to place upon lack.

11:48

Holly: We are very different people. In a lot of ways.

11:51

Harley: You wouldn't ask that question?

11:52

Holly: I don’t think I'd ask the question. Not to their face.

11:56

Harley: But the opportunity has been opened up more than once?

12:00

Holly: Okay, if the opportunity is there. Absolutely, I’m going to take that opportunity.

12:02

Harley: It’s not like I'd be like, ‘nice to meet you. Why you like that?’

12:07

Holly: You would though, I feel like, depending on the person.

12:09

Harley: Depending on the person.

12:11

Holly: If you met an angel, absolutely you would.

12:14

Harley: Yeah. Because I mean, Razgut before you right hold explicitly that he's a fallen angel, which you do get fairly early on is essentially this like, demonic thing that's like clinging to this man's neck and has like, no working legs, and it's like wings have been ripped off and things that I feel like that's a level of trauma that I wouldn't necessarily just ask out of nowhere, but even Razgut a few times is that You don't know what you think you know. At what point do you go Okay, so what don't I know? Like, what are you trying to tell me here? Yes. Stop alluding to shit and spit it out? Or just stop altogether? Those are your options. Anyway, actually fine. Razgut is really interesting.

12:50

Holly: And he's very well-described, I think in a lot of scenes, despite your very quick recap there that made him kind of sound like Voldemort on the back of this girl's head, but no, he's very well, like explained.

13:06

Harley: You need to think more like, like a demonic parasite than something like Voldemort or things like that. So, she's obviously the author is obviously using a lot of very kind of old-fashioned imagery of mythical beings. And so it is that very, like, old.

13:22

Holly: Yeah, we're not clear on history. Yeah, not quite the like, fae or not. I'm an angel. But we're, we're more in that realm than, well, the angels, certainly. 

13:30

Harley: So, this is a bit of a spoiler for future books, but they're kind of where I left off in the story. Anyway, the angels have realized that there is a gap for them to get through to this world, they realize that humans have weapons that they have not previously had access to. And they're like, We could win this war with guns and things. But they've come into our world being like, No, we are angels. So, they've realized, so there's a bit of a kind of scene there, where it's in this version of the world is the like, they are Old Testament angels, but they seem unaware of their role in our religion because they discover that in the course of the book and go, Hey, we can use this to our advantage.

14:06

Holly: Imagine that imagine like, going into this realm and being like, Ha, I'm a cool creature, and then being like, Oh, do you guys worship us? Sick.

14:15

Harley: And they do allude from the very, very start before the angels have kind of made themselves known. Or there has been any reveal or any of that kind of stuff when they're still marking the doors at the very beginning. Like there's a feather that falls from one of their wings. And I think a nun reaches out to catch it, and it burns her so she ends up with the burn print of a feather.

14:35

Holly: Again, such cool imagery.

14:38

Harley: Very cool imagery, throughout.

14:39

Holly: Very unique stuff.

14:40

Harley: And have you ever been to Prague?

14:43

Holly: No.

14:44

Harley: It’s a fantastic city to set it in. Because it's such a like fairytale city, Prague. Yeah, we'll go. Maybe when there's a little bit less impending world doom in that part of the world. Yeah. That'd be great. But it's specifically focused there but like, it’s awfully close to Russia and Ukraine. 

15:01

Holly: Yeah, we can't really take tarts on tour.

15:05

Harley: Yeah, alliteration for a war zone is not so great.

15:09

Holly: Well, can you just sort yourselves out, so we can go?

15:13

Harley: Yes. Anyway, very cool part of the world and very much looks like a fairy tale setting. So it is, in essence, a bit of a Romeo and Juliet star-crossed lovers story. Yeah, well, this angel comes across a girl who he's like, Why can you speak the language of the Chimaera? And who are you? What are you so he follows her, and then discovers that she has the eyes, or Hamsas, whatever they're called, oh, that word once. So, she's got our eye tattoo on her palm. So, her hand essentially becomes a hand of Fatima or whatever, it repels the evil eye. Which, interestingly enough - I thought this was really interesting - works against angels. So, it established really early on that, even though we've got a sort of angels versus demons mythology thing going on there. The demons are not necessarily like even maybe they look more demonic, because they're half-animal, half-human, or they're like a mix of animals or whatever. But they're not necessarily the bad guys. Because if it protects against the evil eye, or it's a sign of protection, why would it work against the angels, if anything, it should go the other way,

16:19

Holly: I guess it comes down to intention, if that person is coming, or that angel, the creature or the whatever is coming at you with the intention to cause harm or the intention to.

16:28

Harley: But it doesn't seem to work, it seems to just cause pain to the angels, regardless of their intention, because there is a point somewhere in it where they like the Chimaera use it against, I think Akiva to like torture him basically, might not be Akiva. So, the hands don't necessarily protect against attack. They simply cause harm to angels, or seraphim, or whatever.

16:54

Holly: Hmm, that is an interesting little choice. 

16:58

Harley: So, I think that it was a really great way of establishing very early on, that this wasn't a good versus evil, or at least that it wasn't as simple as like, Karou is going to meet an angel and fall in love and everything's going to be happily ever after. And like, no. And then she just has to deal with the conflict of her family not liking angels is like, no, no, no. And as you get further and further into it, you realize that, like, so there's a war between the Chimaera and the angels, and I don't think either side is particularly good, or inherently evil, necessarily.

17:31

Holly: No, it's just yeah, like a bit of a power struggle.

17:33

Harley: And there's evil done on both sides. So, the angels, certainly, I think the angels probably have a little bit more of a military structure. So, there's a little bit less humanity, I guess. So, they have less opportunity to be good, rather than just following orders. But the Chimaera, there are plenty of Chimaera who do awful things as well, even if there are plenty of Chimaera who do good things. So like Brimstone, who's the father figure? And the wish monger, he throughout the books we see is an inherently good character. But Thiago, who's the leader of the Chimaera, like the warlord or king or whatever, is a terrible creature or person or whatever, like he's, he's a bad guy who gets worse with time. But the interesting thing is that we don't follow either of them. So, we follow Karou and Akiva. And both of them are kind of morally grey characters.

18:32

Holly: I would hesitate to name anyone that is actually a morally good character.

18:38

Harley: Yeah, but we'd certainly like we sit in that moral greyness in terms of Karou is so devastated by what happens to like the massacre of all the Chimaera and like Kishmish dying, Brimstone’s death. Yeah, Yasri is because she's seen the kindness of like, like Issa, for example. As much as she would strangle you with a snake if you wronged her or threatened her or things like that. She has always been kind to Karou and has always looked after her and raised her and things like that. And then it has been massacred just for being Chimaera.

19:12

Holly: I really liked her. Actually, I think she's really one of my favorites, if not my favorite character.

19:17

Harley: But like in her devastation from that she helps the Chimaera cause more damage and do more harm. And equally, Akiva is like when he gets heartbroken, he goes pretty cold and he's like, all Chimaera can die. So Issa was your favorite? I think so. I think my favorite is Zuzana.

19:37

Holly: I do live Zuzana, and do things.

19:40

Harley: So Karou’s best friend is like the comic relief. I want to say yeah, yeah. So, how is she described, she's like a tiny fairy, but one that bites?

19:50

Holly: Yeah, so she's a ballerina. So, she's quite or, she at least embodies…

19:57

Harley: So, she's the daughter of a family of puppeteers. The ballerina thing I think comes in because of the act Karou suggests to her. So, they were in art school together, and she reversed it. So, she becomes the puppet and makes a puppet puppeteer, like a giant puppeteer that that's actually the puppet and does it in reverse. And she can be the marionette. And she does this as part of her project. So yeah, but yeah, she's this tiny, feisty little thing who's often very funny. So sassy. And will give anybody shit.

20:29

Holly: Yeah. Not afraid to go up to exes and whatnot. And just like, tell him how it is. Who was the one that threw…? Was it her that threw the little balloon? What was in the balloon? It wasn't that. I wanted it to be a bag of piss. But it wasn't.

20:45

Harley: Yeah, I can't remember what was in it. So, she's that friend that I think part of the reason why I like her so much is, because this is totally my vibe. She'll be like, let's come up with the most vicious plot, we can get revenge on your shit ex with, not necessarily, any intention of executing it. But just to be like, I'm gonna make you laugh at the idea of me pouring a bowl full of urine on his head or a balloon full of urine on your ex-boyfriend’s head, but she will follow through to that point where they do throw a balloon of something on his head.

21:13

Holly: I think was like shaving cream or something. But her first plan was absolutely urine. Yeah. 100% urine. And the only reason it wasn't urine was because she couldn't get someone with an appendage to pee in a balloon for her. Now that probably wouldn’t work anyway, but…

21:29

Harley: Unfortunately, she did not get to find out. No.

21:33

Holly: Unfortunately. 

21:34

Harley: I'm glad you enjoyed it. In large part because I don't want to just exclusively recommend you things you hate. But I would say that I recommended things you'd hate. But I did force you to read things that you'd hate.

21:47

Holly: Well, I'm just generally not a…like when I read fantasy, I am a big fan of magic school fantasy. So, your Harry Potter, Zodiac Academy.

22:00

Harley: Getting into reading with something like that. 

22:03

Holly: Yeah, I wonder what could have done it. So I like primarily, I think human characters that have creatures around them. Rather than, like Fae characters or Chimaera characters. I do like a human character.

22:18

Harley: That's the interesting thing about Karou, though, is that she's not actually human. I mean, she, but she isn't that she isn’t.

22:23

Holly: And I wonder if that's why I enjoyed it because I identified more with it.

22:27

Harley: See, I figured you'd identify with her because she's creative. But she's also like she's very human in that trying to problem solve, I think that the author has done a really good job of making her somebody who doesn't always make the right choice and has genuine consequences to that. But yeah, she is somebody who has a bit of spunk and survives on her own and all that kind of stuff in a way that I thought that you would enjoy.

22:50

Holly: Yeah. I mean, I still had there were a few issues that I had with the book. But I did overall, quite enjoy it.

22:56

Harley: Yeah, yeah, I definitely had some, I don't know that I had problems with the first book, specifically so much as kind of reading the rest of the series. I think there were a few things that it was like, okay, the suspense has gone on too long for this.

23:10

Holly: Oh, definitely. There was a lot of suspense, which is fine.

23:14

Harley: It's just like, I just think it went on a little bit too long with not enough moments of being rewarded. And I think some of that is sometimes giving that hint too early. Like if there was that thing of Razgut being a fallen angel, but then it's not necessarily brought up until down the track. Somebody is like, Did you ever ask him and they're like, Oh, I knew. It then gives you less time as a reader to be like, asked why? Somebody? Anybody? Anybody ask the question. Nobody's asking the question still. And there's yeah, there are a few things like that, in the books that are not helped by the fact that the second book goes back in time. But yeah, there are a few moments that are a little bit frustrating, especially over the course of multiple novels, because of course, knowing it to series you're not going to get the payoff for everything in the first book, you're just not.

24:04

Holly: So, it is a series, and everywhere that I saw it online or marketed. It was a trilogy, but you've read will listen to at least three and it's not resolved yet. Hmm. Interesting,

24:17

Harley: I think the other thing is, and I mean, I guess this is how much self-control do you have as a reader? To which I would probably answer little to none. I think the first so the first book ends on this massive cliffhanger moment that I think is brilliantly done because you do like you get to the end of the book and your work. Excuse the fuck out of what?

24:39

Holly: How dare you end like that.

24:41

Harley: Get back here. And tell me the rest. And it is such a good click like it's and she nails the cliffhanger. But when you are not in the public, like you're not reading it in real-time, and you can just go and binge the next book. I feel like that kind of there is almost a little bit of a book hangover for it that I was like 90% of the way through The second book or almost possibly even in the third book before I realized that I had that book hangover, and I probably should have stopped and read something else before I came back to it because it's such a big moment.

25:10

Holly: Yeah. So that's kind of where I am now. So, I read the first one. And then I immediately started the second one. And then I've very quickly kind of not lost interest, but I kind of, I didn't absorb as much but yeah, I hit my drinking wall. And I just kind of found like, yeah, I probably needed a palate cleanser in between the two to keep me riled up to keep going. I'm not sure that the second one really starts in a place that carries on with that cliffhanger momentum. Because it does go back in time. And it's just kind of like, oh, and now there's a whole bunch of stuff. And like, yes, we learn about Karou’s backstory, and all of these. And it's very interesting. And it's well done. But there's too much, bringing us back into real-time earlier for at least a little bit more.

26:03

Harley: It is a very kind of hard gear shift. And it's a hard gear shift to make when you go straight back-to-back. 

26:11

Holly: So essentially, Brimstone, who is the like adopted dad of Karou kind of has this wishbone. He always has this wishbone with him. And then when he disappears, the wishbone ends up in Karou’s hands, which she was previously never allowed to touch is never allowed such ever. So there's this moment between Akiva and Karou, where they have this beautiful intimate moment, and then they make the decision to break the wishbone and restore her memories of her life beforehand, which includes her previous name. So, once we shift gears into the second book, Karou is no longer Karou. She's Madrigal. And for me, I think that was a little bit too much of a shift, because it almost felt like it was a different story, not just a different time period in the same story, it was a whole different story. And I think it took me a little bit of time to adjust to that.

27:08

Harley: And I feel like it almost needed to be out of series. So, like a prequel or but like not the next book. Yeah, it would have made a really good prequel. Yeah. And as a tide over, like, if it was something that was like, Oh, it's a prequel, but it was published in between the first and second book, so that you get a bit of a backstory and things like that, but not as the second book. I think I probably would have enjoyed it more. But yeah, that sudden gear shift is that like, it really does. I mean, I think in general, after that cliffhanger ending, treat it like you're gonna get a book hangover. Because like–you know, when you do too many shots, or you're drinking, like those good cocktails that don't taste too boozy, and then you stand up or you like, you go to the bathroom, and you sit down, and you're like, Oh, fuck.

27:55

Holly: Yes, I have had too many. But it's like, it's the one from two drinks ago. that's causing the problem here. It's not the one you just had. 

28:03

Harley: Yeah, well, it's that thing of the like, you know, where you do like two or three shots, and then you go back to like drinking vodka sodas, and it's the shots that fucked you up. But you're like halfway through a vodka soda when you're like, I think I'm done drinking.

28:15

Holly: I think I should have been drink done drinking a while ago.

28:18

Harley: I think I might have made some poor life choices. Yeah, it's the book equivalent of that.

28:24

Holly: Yes. Not saying the author made poor life choices. She's made some very, very good choices.

28:29

Harley: No, it's like it is very good. It like don't get me wrong, it is fun drunk, but you will suffer the consequences of not knowing when to call it quits. Or take a break.
 

28:39

Holly: Eat some food. Have a coffee? palate cleanser book?

28:43

Harley: You need a book to be the glass of water in between? Yep, pace yourself.

28:49

Holly: Which is exactly what I've done. So, I've kind of abandoned the book for now. I'll come back to it. But I am currently halfway through a palate cleanser book. Yeah. No, we'll come back to it to finish at least the trilogy, or whatever else. The story.

29:05

Harley: Yeah, I don't know that it's a book that I would binge again. But also, I hesitate to say won't binge-read them. Because I don't know how you can get to that ending and not immediately go fuck whatever these girls said. Anybody who said, I'm going to read the next book I need to know.

29:25

Holly: Yeah, I think that's very valid. I read the first sort of three-quarters of the first one over. I wasn't super invested yet. And I kind of had a lot on so it probably took me about five days to get through the first three-quarters of it. And then they broke the wishbone. And it was just like whoosh, downhill from there. I binged it to the end of the novel and then I binged a good portion through the next one before I was like, I am not absorbing this. I need a break.

29:54

Harley: So I downloaded the first book when I had a whole stack of driving to do so I downloaded it on audible and listen to it. And it was one of those ones that I was like, oh, yeah, like I'm enjoying this. This will be one that I reread every so often, like maybe not obsessively or anything like that. But like, I'll reread it every so often I can enjoy this again. The pacing is good, I'm enjoying it ticks all the boxes of books that I like to read, and then got that ending, and I'm pretty sure I pulled over on the side of the road to download the next book.

30:28

Holly: I need to know what happens next, right now can confirm I've done that sort of thing, maybe not with this one? But yes.

30:33

Harley: Well, I had like 40 minutes of country driving ahead of me. So I was like, No, I can't just put a podcast on I need to know what happens next in this story. So yeah, I definitely had that moment. And I don't know how you would not have that moment from that wishbone, cliffhanger kind of moment. Because it is such a sudden, in a really good way. It's a really sudden shift, I guess is the best way. And maybe that's why the shift again into backstory is just a little bit disconcerting because it is kind of throwing you in one direction then the other. And it's been a hangover so much. It's a pacing shift. But like a roller coaster moment where you're like, Oh, I went around one too many corners. I was just one too many mini loop de loops for my stomach to handle. So yeah, like, but yeah, I feel like it makes it sound like stories are bad. And it's really not.

31:28

Holly: I think the start of the second book just doesn't quite live up to the expectations that the cliffhanger put in place. And that's fine. That's fair. But just don't go into the second book expecting the same pacing as that last portion of the first book, because it's not, it chills the fuck out again. 

31:48

Harley: I think it's one of those ones that I'm really curious about, for the people who read it in real-time, had to wait however long for the author to publish book two and how that went for them and how that affected their attachment to story one versus story two, and all that kind of stuff. Because if you're anything like me, when books come out in a series, and I have to wait, I often will read the books I have in the interim. Or when the new book comes out. I'll read the pre-existing books. So I wouldn't necessarily be coming off that intense cliffhanger moment fresh, no need to be changed. I wonder how that affects the experience of reading them and enjoying them and all that. And I actually think it probably would be a good thing. Like I feel like it would work in its favor.

32:41

Holly: Yeah. I think so, too.

32:42

Harley: I'd be really interested to talk to somebody who read it in real-time.

32:45

Holly: When were these books released?

32:47

Harley: Yes. I don't know. I'll look it up. 

32:48

Holly: Well, the Wikipedia article is January 2013.

32:51

Harley: Published in September 2011. 

32:56

Holly: Yes, Days of Blood & Starlight is the second one published in November 2012. So about 12 months between them just slightly more. And then the third one is Dreams of Gods & Monsters. April 1, 2014. So that 15, 16 months.

33:13

Harley: Have I missed part of this? Maybe I haven't read the third one. Maybe I only read two? Have I lied this whole time?

33:21

Holly: They are quite hefty books. So, I understand why reading to you could feel like you had read more. They are very big, even if listened to as an audiobook and even on twice speed you like to listen to them.

33:35

Harley: One point five. Give us a moment. 

33:43

Holly: So, after a break, and an existential crisis.

33:46

Harley: I have read two out of three of those books. I definitely did not read this last. I 100% would have sworn that I only stopped because I ran out of books to read. It is very unusual for me to not finish something.

34:00

Holly: Yeah. So, I noticed that it was a trilogy. Like we said before, I finished the first one and I was like okay, how many books do we want to do for the podcast? Do we want to try and do the trilogy? Or just the one?

34:11

Harley: I was like I've read them all. It's not finished. Like this is genuinely like the Mandela Effect moment for me almost where I'm like, Have I accidentally stepped into an alternate universe? If so, is there an upgrade from the one I was in? 

34:27

Holly: If you were listening to them as audiobooks, it is quite possible that the third one was not available as an audiobook when you listen to them. Maybe that's what happened. And these are like 14, 15 hour, if not longer, books.

34:39

Harley: Yeah, I would have thought that I'd read more than maybe it's because it jumps between Karou and Madrigal that I've like split it in two. But yeah, I would have sworn that I'd read at least three books. Anyway, that's a fun thing to discover, like 40 minutes into talking about them like I know what I'm talking about.

35:00

Holly: So, if someone does know why he fell from grace.

35:05

Harley: Well, I’ll listen to or read the third one now that I know it exists, and that I have not in fact read it. Yeah, we were always intending to only focus on the first one so it's not the end of the day that I haven't finished the third one it does however change - there are some answers to some questions that I don't have, that hopefully are resolved in that one because if they're not that means she just straight up is not resolving them which rude!  Not the first or last time an author has done it Not the rudest thing an author has done to me, but that's because I've read Isobelle Carmody and I’m forever in my feelings about that one. That's fine. I won’t start a why can't Isobelle Carmody finish a book rant. Because if I do, we'll be here for six more hours.

35:44

Holly: Yeah. So, I was with Harley when she realized how long of a gap there's been between the books and also that there is a draft available that has not been published. And then she had to call a friend.

35:58

Harley: I was talking about Isobelle Carmody here for the record. So, for anybody who doesn't know Isobelle Carmody is an award-winning fantasy author who has been publishing books since her very first years of college in like the late-’80s, early-’90s. I'm pretty sure she still hasn't actually finished Obernewtyn, so she's yet to finish a series. if I'm wrong on that she's finished one series. And not the series I'm most excited for her to finish, which she ended on a cliffhanger and hasn't finished, despite apparently having this draft. It's so yeah, I had to call a friend and express my disappointment in the fact that no matter what she just, it just gets worse. And anyway, I'm still not over it. 

36:41

Holly: So, should I read these? Or am I gonna get upset as well?

36:45

Harley: Do you enjoy stories ending on cliffhangers with no resolution? And by ending, I mean, ending mid-story, so it's not actually ended?

36:52

Holly: No. Okay, well, maybe I’ll skip these ones, at least.

36:57

Harley: Until like 30 years after she's died when somebody finally dusts off the draft.

37:01

Holly: Well, I mean, we could go like Verity on her.

37:06

Harley: That's how Meg and I first started really, like deeply bonding as friends was over ‘we should write the ending of these books that we never got.’ Oh, yeah. Which we never got around to, because ADHD meeting ADHD. But yeah, that was the start of our we already knew each other we already got on but that was the start of us being like friend friends. Just a detour into many hours of Mario. And now she’s stuck with me, the wench. But I would not she like she's a brilliant author, which is part of the problem. She's actually incredibly brilliant. As a storyteller, she just can't end anything ever. But yeah, anyway, back to the old one, we're actually talking about her apparently cannon things, even though I'm oblivious to set endings.

37:52

Holly: So, one thing I think she did really, really well was the world-building. I think she's just done a really good job of building this kind of like, we've got Earth. But the cities, we've got those locations. And then you have this magic shop, which is almost suspended in like time and space, it feels like its own entity, which might just be the way I interpreted it.

38:12

Harley: No, it's absolutely the vibe I got.

38:15

Holly: And then you've got the rest of the like, dimensions beyond that. And she's done. I feel like she's done a really, really good job of building that out. Even though we don't necessarily see a whole lot of it.

38:26

Harley: Yeah, I think too, she doesn't really good job from the very beginning of establishing that that's there without being too verbose, I guess about it. So, because we follow stuff from Karou’s perspective, and she doesn't know about this other world initially, but she does know about the magic shop and that space between and all that kind of stuff. We establish fairly early on that there are other things that we don't know about. But without like, yeah, even when they find out about all that stuff, and all that kind of thing, I think that she really manages to convey quite a lot while steering clear of, let me monologue to you about 500 years of backstory and like, a little bit of that. And I mean, there's no 100% avoiding it. If you are building out a world that's not our own, because at some point, you have to tell people how the world functions just to be able to get to the story, but I think she does a really good job of not falling too far into that, which is a challenge. It's a very hard thing to do. The reason why, like show don't tell and all that kind of stuff is such age-old writing advice that still gets dusted off for writing classes is because our natural instinct is to tell, and I don't know where in the writing process she has managed to finesse that, whether that's something that just comes really naturally to her or whether she's got a good editor or whether she's a good editor of her own work, but wherever in the process that has been taken out or reworked. So, they've nailed it. Absolutely, because it feels like a really whole world. And it doesn't feel like you have to sit through pages and pages and pages of like, I fleshed out the entire universe. Look at me.

40:13

Holly: Yeah, I think a good portion of that also comes from bringing those little magical elements into the earth plane. We already know, we've already got the scene set. And then to bring little things like, absolutely love the imagery of the necklace. So, Karou has a necklace, which is strung with beads, which are essentially wishes. And then every time she wants to make a small wish because these are only small wish beads, one vanishes. So, she makes the wish it disappears, the necklace gets shorter, she goes home, she strings more wishes onto a necklace, and it gets longer again.

40:47

Harley: And then described as looking like, like African beads at one point in the thing. So, you get like a very quick visual of what exactly she's wearing and kind of how she's looking. And without too much like, really, she's just described as having tattoos and blue hair, and a string of beads. But I've got a very clear visual in my head of what Karou looks like. And even Zuzana is not there's not a lot of heaps and heaps of time spent describing her. But even just that description of like, this tiny little thing, who's like a fairy that will bite I'm like, immediately I have a visual.

41:23

Holly: Which I think that almost ambiguity in description, like a detailed description can be detrimental, should they turn this into a movie or as a series or something?

41:36

Harley: I don't know that she's necessarily even entirely been ambiguous because like they like…

41:41

Holly: I’ve just been using her, like finer detailed descriptions because you've been able to fill in the gaps.

41:47

Harley: Except that I think that the right casting person, it wouldn't necessarily be an issue because it is that thing of like casting a character rather than casting. Often when characters are really specifically described, people will cast the visual rather than somebody who can embody that character. Whereas Have you seen Lost Girl?

42:05

Holly: No.

42:06

Harley: Okay, so the girl who plays Kenzie, so Lost Girl is a TV series. It's about a succubus who doesn't know that she's fae but the fae world exists and they find her and she's got a human best friend who like that is how I picture it, Zuzana, and not necessarily visually, but the way that she behaves. Karou at the very beginning of her novel is on her way to art school and her ex-boyfriend shows up and is like baby, get back together with me, we're so good together. She's like, you're an asshole go away. And he kind of said something and she's like, fuck off. And then he turns up as the model in her art class and he's like, making a point of like, looking at her the whole time like making really intense eye contact the whole time like smirking at her and all these kinds of things. So, she uses her small wishes to make his ass itch basically.

42:57

Holly: Yes so, she gives him little itches in certain places starting really like his nose where he can scratch and then works his way out.

43:07

Harley: Well, so he can kind of alleviate a nose itch but because he's an artist model for a life drawing class, you can't really move so even a nose itch she can't really alleviate. But she gives him itches for a little bit and then stops and then itches for a little bit and then stops because they're just small wishes. So, they don't last for very long but works their way up to him having an itchy ass crack. And I think that that's a really effective way of showing that she does have that little bit of like spite or vengefulness in her.

43:36

Holly: And a sense of humor about her spite, too.

43:39

Harley: Yeah, but it's also it's like it's a way of showing that she had this negative quality without framing her as the bad guy. Because it is like he's a douche. And he does kind of deserve it. But she's also being spiteful. And oh, yeah, she's definitely not the bad guy it and we see that escalate, as the books go on. And the stakes become higher, and it's less about a douchey ex being a douche. And more about everybody I've ever loved has been massacred, slight escalation there. But yeah, I think that she like she establishes the type of person they are very well. And then it leaves the visuals blank enough that actually I think if anything, it would make casting easier. Yes, there will be people who will complain that they don't look exactly the way that they were described in my head, but it doesn't matter what you do. That's going to happen. Like I literally could write a book describing you as a person and you could come in and play that character and somebody would be like that’s not how I imagined her in my head. I feel like the casting’s wrong. Do you know what I mean?

44:35

Holly: I'm gonna have Margot Robbie play me, or Abby Chatfield if she decides to go into an acting career. Those are the two people I get told I look like.

44:42

Harley: I get Anne Hathaway. Or because my hair is red and I can be a bitch, Donna from Suits. And I'm like, I actually don't look that much like the actress, but I get what you're saying.

44:56

Holly: Yeah, but this is the vibe. That is the same vibe.

45:00

Harley: Actually, you know who I used to get? 

45:03

Holly: Not so much they unintentionally just can't with a really perfect example of what we were just discussing.

45:08

Harley: I get Kristin Ritter a lot. 

45:10

Holly: I don’t think I know who that is.

45:11

Harley: Kristin Ritter she played Jessica Jones?

45:14

Holly: Oh, yes. Correct. I do see that. 

45:18

Harley: Don't Trust the Bitch in Apartment 23. So a lot of people like vibe by like, visually, we don't particularly look alike. Beyond being skinny white girls. 

45:26

Holly: I'd say you look alike, facial structure and stuff. You look more like her than you do the actress that plays Donna.

45:32

Harley: Yeah. But I like even then I'm like a bit of a stretch. Where it's like Anne Hathaway. It's harder to see when I'm a redhead. But certainly, when I'm brunette, I see it. I'm not like, and listen, she's a beautiful woman. So, yay. But we both have that very, like, say the heaviness of the eyebrows and the quite strong features, even though they don't necessarily express themselves in the exact same way. I'm like, I see what you're seeing if that makes sense. Whereas with like Kristin Ritter, it's 100%. It's the vibe, or like Donna from Suits. It's the vibe. And yeah, that's exactly what I made where I'm like, visually, Anne Hathaway should play me reversed or whatever. I think we're about the same age. I think she's slightly older than me. I don't know. I can't say I've cared enough to ever look into that. But oh, she must be because I grew up with her in movies and stuff. So, she must be just a little bit older than me. Very important and necessary information. But yeah, like visually, she would be the kind of closest match, but then vibe-wise, there are other actors who I think would do a better job. And I think someone like Kristin Ritter is great at that, like, sudden switch between ridiculous and bitch that I endeavor to nail. But it's yeah, it's that like cheekiness and keeping you on your toes and all that kind of thing. And for like, which version of me you get, I don't know, which is where I think like Don't trust the B in Apartment 23 in that when that came out. And when that was on Netflix and everything. I was watching it for the first time, constantly. People were like, have you seen this because vibes. I was like Guys, I’m not scamming anyone. But thank you so much. I really appreciate it. She’s fabulous. I actually love Kristin Ritter I think she's hilarious. So, I'm down for that comparison. Yeah, it's not a bad comparison. So, who would be your vibe cast?

47:08

Holly: For me?

47:10

Harley: Margot Robbie's obviously the like one that you're like, she's a babe and the comparison I get the most so.

47:16

Holly: I think Margot will just do a good job. She's actually really fucking talented. Yeah. So, I actually met her quite a few times before she was like a big thing when she was our neighbor. So, I used to work at a little news agency, and she would often come in and buy her Dolly and Cosmopolitan magazines.

47:37

Harley: They don’t even exist anymore, do they?

47:39

Holly: I don't know. Maybe? So I’ve had a little bit of a conversation with her. And she was always really, like, genuinely lovely person. Because where I worked, this news agency was really not that far from where they filmed Neighbors, so she’d be on her way home from work. And so, who would you cast them? For Karou and Zuzana.

48:03

Harley: Zuzana, I would probably actually go find the chick from Lost Girl. And be like, Yeah, you can do it. Do you have any sisters? With the exact same energy you bring to the table? I don't know who I'd cast for Karou.

48:16

Holly: Because remember, they've got to be able to rock blue hair, which was a wish. And so, it does grow blue out of her head.

48:22

Harley: I do actually really like that her solution to have this weird, fantastical life is just to tell people the truth and let them be like, Fine. Don't tell me that. Oh, my God, where did you get this amazing blue hair? And she's like, It grows out of my head like that. People are like, Oh, you're just trying to get keep your hairdresser. And then they’ll walk off and she's like, Sure. Yep. Because she's like, I can lie to people. But then I get caught in a lie, or I can tell them the truth. And they can assume that I'm lying to be like, funny and ridiculous and annoying. But y’know, I don't have a person for Karou. To be honest. I don't think rocking blue hair would be as hard as people think it is. I think people have a hard time imagining actors with different hair colors, or outside kind of their assigned hair color. But I yeah, I don't know who necessarily has that energy. It doesn't help that she's clearly alternative. Like she's got tattoos and blue hair and all that kind of stuff. And I don't think most actors because you have to be kind of that every person thing, like canvas. What character from the books would you play? If you could play anybody and know that you're going to nail the acting part because that would be the hard part right? Oh, I don't think finishing drama at 18 really set me up for movie stardom.

49:35

Holly: I don't know. Maybe Brimstone? Because I can just be this grouchy, old man who plays with teeth and wishes.

49:43

Harley: A crocodile man. Oh yeah,

49:45

Holly: He was a crocodile, wasn’t he?

49:48

Harley: Do you know how much time you would have to spend in hair and makeup to make that happen?

49:51

Holly: Can I change my mind? I absolutely change my mind.

49:54

Harley: Who’s the most basic character?

49:55

Holly: I’ll be a half-snake lady. I can just slither into that suit, kinda?

49:59

Harley: Sure. Whatever you need to tell yourself. Probably walking around half-painted green or in some tracksuit pants with things on them so that they can CGI it.

50:09

Holly: Can I at least lie down while they paint me? Is just like, like a spray tan. You just go like, turn around, lean forward, but it's green.

50:18

Harley: Why do you think I'm an expert? 

50:20

Holly: I don't know, who would you play?

50:22

Harley: I think Issa would be fun, who would I play?

50:27

Holly: Razgut

50:28

Harley: I reckon it would be fun playing Razgut actually. I think that I would have a great time doing it. I think I'd execute it terribly. But I'd have a great time doing it. I actually want to say Madrigal, but not necessarily Karou.

50:43

Holly: Oh, yeah. You just got to think for those goat legs. Were they goat legs?

50:49

Harley: Deer, or something like that, anyway.

50:52

Holly: Not quite a centaur.

50:56

Harley: No, I just, I think because she straddles that kind of interesting thing between innocence and kind of that facing the realities of the world and all that kind of stuff. And yeah, I think Madrigal is quite an interesting character in a way that’s separate from how Karou is an interesting character. And I think that, yeah, like, I find that a loss of innocence kind of thing interesting. In a way that I like exploring, but also, she was never, like, to a certain extent, she's in the same position as say, Persephone in Neon Gods, but in a very different novel. But it is that like, the creepy threatening king of all it is wants me as his partner with his wolf head and all that. And he wants me because of this sense of purity that he has about me, and I don't want to be that person. I'm not that person on the inside. But I also am aware that I'm like, I’m in my first body, and I'm untouched and all that kind of thing in a way that he's fetishizing beyond who I am as a person. And I think that that navigating of that experience is really interesting. And yeah, I just like I think that's really interesting. And I think as somebody who's listened to too many actor roundtables and all that kind of stuff. But I think the thing of like, who would you play in a movie or stuff like that, for me anyway, is very much that thing for like, who's the most interesting to get inside their head? Yeah, or inside their experience of the world. And I think Madrigal is that for me, not so much Karou, but Madrigal is that for me, even if I do have to spend time in hair and makeup, getting my legs green screened, or wrapped or however the fuck they do it, because I don't know how they…

52:33

Holly: It’s probably like stilts or something.

52:35

Harley: …or a combination of things. I can actually walk in stilts. Not super high ones because my fear of heights kicks in, but like the ones that you would need for I'm slightly taller than human, not human legs, because I could walk…

52:47

Holly: So dear readers, listeners, and all of the above? Who would you like to cast as, do you guys have a dream cast?

52:57

Harley: Who are they? Any book?

52:59

Holly: Not even this book.

53:01

Harley: But if we could stay with this book for now. Yeah, I'd be really interested to see who you guys would do as a dream cast. I love people's dreams casts of books, or live-action versions of things or where I like, I'm always fascinated to see what other people say. And I always feel like I'm really bad at them. And then when someone's like, So and so in this role, I'm like, Oh, that's perfect. You've nailed it.

53:24

Holly: Yeah, it's yeah, just like I don't know enough actors’ names, as demonstrated when we doing dining in the dark and you were like, This person for this role. And it's like, I don't know who that is. And we're in the dark so we couldn't you were very drunk, you were like eight cocktails and I'm not surprised you're looking at me with such a blank stare. 

53:39

Harley: I don't even remember what we were casting.

53:41

Holly: I think it was Acotar. No, it wasn't. It was no I think Addie LaRue.

53:49

Harley: I have no memory of this.

53:49

Holly: Yeah, I think there are many things from that particular night you have no memory of. 

53:52

Harley: You’re not wrong.

53:57

Holly: You texted me the next day being like, Did I do my skincare routine? Because my skin feels pretty good today.

54:05

Harley: I woke up with great skin.

54:07

Holly: You did your five-step skincare routine, trashed on the floor of the shower. It was glorious too.

54:14

Harley: Well, I wish that I could give myself that level of commitment to my skincare when I'm not off my tits because lord knows I'd have glowing skin all the time. Anyway, apparently, I can only dream cast effectively when sloshed.

54:27

Holly: So, join us next week for another episode of Bimbo Book Club. Bimbos out.

54:32

Harley: Bimbos out.

The Stupidest Angel transcript

© Bimbo Media

00:02

Holly: This is Bimbo Book Club with Holly,

00:12

Harley: And Harley. All right Holly, do you want to tell everybody what we're talking about today?

00:19

Holly: We are doing a Christmas Episode.

00:24

Harley: Yes, I didn’t know that was a thing that we would be doing but I'm not mad at it.

00:29

Holly: No, I'm not mad either. So this week we are doing The Stupidest Angel by Christopher Moore. I believe the tagline is something like a heartwarming tale of pure terror or something.

00:39

Harley: So it’s a heartwarming tale of Christmas terror.

00:40

Holly:

Oh a heartwarming tale of Christmas terror, and I think that's pretty accurate.

00:46

Harley: I think that was what it said on the cover, anyway, let me check, yes ‘heartwarming tale of Christmas terror’.

00:50

Holly: Very accurate, I believe.

00:55

Harley: So overall what did you think of the book?

00:57

Holly: It's not the kind of thing that I read, it was a comedy. And I don't generally pick up comedies unless it's an autobiography of a comedian. I generally, am not a comedy reader. I did enjoy it. I think the first half was a little bit slow. But then once there was the big twist. I did enjoy it. I enjoyed the last half, more than the first half. But I did enjoy it.

01:23

Harley: I definitely think there was some stuff. We'll get into more details about what I think of it. But I think that maybe a novel was not the best format for it. But before we do that, spoiler warning, from here on out, we will start talking specifics. So if you're determined to read a ‘heartwarming tale of Christmas terror’ with no spoilers, then please leave immediately. Otherwise, let's carry on. So the basic plot summary is that the angel Raziel has come to earth with a mission to make a child's Christmas wish come true. So something that can only be done through divine intervention.

01:57

Holly: Yes, and this, just to clarify, is the stupidest angel, the title is referring to.

02:03

Harley: Which I have to say, as somebody who quite likes biblical angels, like Raziel is a real angel and there as part of me that's like, the audacity.

02:10

Holly: I love that, like he's had to come to Earth for this mission, because he lost a bet, or lost in a game of cards, or something.

02:18

Harley: To Michael, who was supposed to come down.

02:22

Holly: So he's lost the mission or gained the mission.

02:27

Harley: To be fair part of the thing that we do see a little bit from Raziel's perspective. And he's very much like, I'd much rather be smiting the town.

02:32

Holly: Yes, this is beneath me, this little mission.

02:36

Harley: Some of the stupidness of the stupid this angel is taking things literally and the ‘look, I'm just trying to get this Christmas mission wrapped up so I can go back to a good old-fashioned smiting’. And if you smite something, you get the town wrong. It's no big deal.

02:53

Holly: So I think I enjoy the second half of the book, which happens after the Christmas wish is granted. And that is probably the big spoiler.

03:00

Harley: So that's the biggest spoiler. So essentially, it starts off early in the book, a child witnesses what he thinks is the murder of Santa. So unsurprisingly, it's somebody dressed in a Santa suit, who does actually die. But this kid just sees Santa that smacked in the face with a shovel. And he's like, oh my God, Santa is dead. Christmas is ruined. So the angel at this point is like, you want me to bring Santa back from the dead? Sorted. That's your Christmas wish, done. But we do start prior to that. And as much as I think this story really takes off from the point where he's like, Hey, Santa, you're coming back. There are some really funny scenes, specifically around Raziel actually.

03:47

Holly: He's a very dry character.

03:50

Harley: And he's very literal. So like the first scene where we meet him, and you know what's going on this, like handsome stranger walks into a bar, you figure out what's going on pretty fast, because the title makes it obvious that an angel is showing up at some point. But this handsome stranger walks into a bar. The bartender Mavis is like how you doin’. And he turns around to her and goes, I need a child. So it's this random dude, walks into a bar, I need a child. One, why do you think there would be a child in a bar and two, that's very problematic. And she of course is like, what the fuck venue do you think this is? No, and he's like, alright, well, a Snickers and a Coke will do.

04:26

Holly: Wasn't it a Diet Coke?

04:28

Harley: Something like that. But there's a couple of moments where he's like, interacting with the townsfolk. And he really is very much like, I need a child, any child will do. And they're reacting like, there's a person coming in and can you imagine, just a man walking up to you and being like, I need a child, any child. So he finds said child in his house. So this poor kid, he's come home from his friends late and he's like, oh my god, I'm going to get in so much trouble and then I'm already on the naughty list. Just because I'm coming home late, I'm going to be in trouble with my mum and watches Santa get murdered. As far as he's aware, comes home has a moment of relief being like, at least my mum's not here. But also no other adult to be like, my god, Santa is dead, walks into his kitchen and the strange man picks him up. And he's like, ‘what's your wish child?’

05:25

Holly: So the child wishes for Santa to come back to life basically. And I think I mentioned in the House of Hunger episode that I was waiting for, from dusk till dawn moment. Anyway, I got it. One book too late! So the angel goes and grants his wish. And done.

05:50

Harley: So part of the problem is because so Dale, who is the guy who's dressed as Santa, because he is murdered, he doesn't have a funeral. So he doesn't have a grave. He's missing as far as the town’s concerned. So the angel only knows that he's buried in the forest somewhere. And so he's like, the guy over there bring him back to life. He waves in the direction of a graveyard, or church, which has a graveyard attached. So he does bring Dale or Santa back to life.

06:18

Holly: Along with everyone else.

06:20

Harley: So, not everybody else, they do establish there's a rule where it's like, 30 years or something is the longest that someone can stay in the graveyard. So they're relatively recent deaths.

06:27

Holly: But some are still just like a puddle of sludge.

06:31

Harley: Yes, so they'd like definitely coming back in various states of decay. But hilarity ensues because they all wake up and they're like, fuck yeah brains.

06:45

Holly: And IKEA. These zombies are on a mission to get brains, go to IKEA. How could you forget the IKEA?

06:53

Harley: So anyway, that's the main turning point in the story is, when all the zombies wake up, because up till there, it's how do we get everybody to the church? And kind of preamble.

07:05

Holly: And it's a long introduction to each of the characters individually, and you didn't need to meet all of them. You could have probably got away with just meeting. Molly and her husband.

07:13

Harley: And Lena and Tucker.

07:15

Holly: And the child, hopefully. That's it. But we do get a long introduction for each of these characters.

07:25

Harley: And some that don't really count like for the scientist, Theo's friend and his ex. There's a long introduction to her for them to just go fuck in the graveyard and then that’s all.

07:35

Holly: I thought it was Molly and her hubby that fucked in the graveyard.

07:38

Harley: That was right at the start. Because at the end the ghosts were like ‘who knew the therapist could get that loud?’

07:46

Holly: So, there's lots of sex in the graveyard happening.

07:48

Harley: Apparently everybody's doing it for the entertainment of the ghosts.

07:53

Holly: So hang on, is it a graveyard, or is it a cemetery? Because one is attached to a church and one is not attached to church?

07:56

Harley: Then whatever is attached to a church. Which one is it?

08:02

Holly: I’m gonna Google it.

08:03

Harley: Random distinctions I didn't know we needed but apparently we do.

08:10

Holly: Look at me, I’m so smart.

08:10

Harley: So I already know the answer to this question. But favorite character.

08:12

Holly: Molly.

08:12

Harley: 100%, absolutely. Would we say Molly or would we say Kendra, Warrior Babe of the outland?

08:18

Holly: Kendra Warrior Babe, for sure!

08:19

Harley: So Molly is one of the main characters and she suffers a wee bit of separation from reality.

08:30

Holly: Yes, so she's painted very early on as like the town's crazy lady. And she is, because she wanders around with a sword.

08:38

Harley: So part of the kind of thing for her and Theo is so they're dating each other and they made a condition essentially that she would go on her meds if he went off his. So he stopped smoking pot, and she took antipsychotics. However, at the start of the novel, in order to get him a designer bong, she went off her meds to save some money so that she can afford this high-end bong. And he has grown a massive weed patch to sell off, so that he can buy her a sword because she broke her Broadsword. So he buys her like a fancy sword. So they're in this space where they're both lying to each other and they're both in some fashion broke in their deal, but they've broken their deal in order to honor who the other person is. So he's like, bought her this sword to be like, I love you as Molly, but I also love you when you take your occasional slips into Kendra Warrior Babe, which was a character she played in movies back in the day.

09:35

Holly: So there's a question there. It's not explicitly said in the book, but when she's playing this warrior babe, were they pornos?

09:48

Harley: I didn't get the vibe that they were, though is this me somehow not immediately going to porn even though you would think that I would.

09:55

Holly: Yes, I would have thought your brain would go straight to porn.

09:58

Harley: But I got that idea that they were those B-grade, 70s style movies, that are clearly like a fetish movie, but not actually porn, where it's like, no, it's just science fiction that's aboveboard and legitimate. Totally for real. It's art. But it's clearly catering to somebody's fetish, even though it's not explicitly like widget A in slot B, like be porn. That's the vibe that I got. But I could be wrong.

10:30

Holly: Well, I don't know. Because I felt like it was softcore porn that could maybe mask as one of those movies, but I definitely thought it was like, porn.

10:39

Harley:  So we're like on either side of the same fence. Because it's not that I didn't think that they were sexual or like that. Because she talks about how her role stopped, because she got a scar across the top of her boob. But if you put somebody in the bikinis that they use, like a Slave Leia, bikini. That's going to fuck that up anyway. I'm not talking about Star Wars, here I am talking about those B-grade sci-fi movies with the like warrior babes and things like that. The role of those movies was that, like, men could go to watch a movie and be like, ‘no, I'm just watching a movie because I like it.’ But they absolutely just having a wank over the main character. But it's that denial thing where it's like, ‘what? Us doing porn? We would never’ versus the like, ‘yeah, no, this is porn.’ And the vibe I got from it, or the assumption that I made was the like, ‘what? Us making porn? We would never!’ Wink wink, nudge nudge. As opposed to the like, ‘yeah it’s porn.’

11:36

Holly: Porn or not. She is a very hyper-sexual character.

11.40

Harley:

And frequently walks around nude.

11:43

Holly: Yeah, but, that's part of her psychotic break I thought, because when she has a psychotic break, she falls back into warrior babe territory.

11:52

Harley: But also, I think that she is like quite sexual walks around in the nude and things like that. The difference is that when she's having a psychotic break, she does things like when she goes into the corner store. And she's like, ‘I don't know why he's looking at me funny.’ He's like, ‘so we've got to like a policy that no shoes, no service.’ And she's like, ‘oh yeah, I forgot to put my shoes on.’ And he's like, ‘Yes, while you're going to get your shoes out of the car do you maybe want to put some pants on as well?’

12:16

Holly: Yes, that bit was implied.

12:18

Harley: You're also not wearing pants or underwear. You've got your top on, and you've done that successfully.

12:22

Holly: I love that she just is her and her hubby just loves her so completely.

12:27

Harley: So her getting him the bong is her saying ‘I love you. In all your weird stoner glory, even though you smoked away too much pot and you needed to tone it down.’ And his present to her is saying 'I love you and all your warrior babe glory. But please stay on your meds.'

12:44

Harley: However, it's important that she goes off her meds because apparently angels are attracted to crazy people.

12:54

Holly: So it's important that she goes off her meds because the angel is attracted to her. And he has the task that he has to prove that he is an angel. And He does that by removing her scar.

13:03

Harley: But also she's the one that communicates with him best because everybody else is like, even though there are zombies there, and it's clearly like something is amiss. And there's something supernatural happening. Inclined to be like, ‘No, fuck off,’ where she's like, ‘yep cool. So you're an angel, and you've done a Christmas miracle. Unfortunately, you read the room wrong. So can you like, undo that shit?’ And he's like, ‘oh okay, sure.’ And so they need to have that character who will be there who is like, ‘cool you're an angel. You've proved that, you removed my scar. That seems legitimate.’ Anyway, on to the more important stuff. She also does fight off the zombies because she doesn't just float about being a warrior princess. She actually does a whole bunch of training.

13:42

Holly: Yes, she really embodies this warrior princess role with her swords. And is often spotted in an itty bitty bikini, with her swords strapped to her back practicing in the front yard or wandering through town. I also really appreciate that, a lot of the novel is told from inside the head of various characters. And then when we're in the head of Molly, we're also introduced to an additional character who she refers to as the narrator, which is the crazy voice. So she comes off an anti psychotics, she's got a voice in her head, she dubs him the narrator. And for a portion of it, he's giving her sound advice about what to do.

14:24

Harley: And I love too there’s a point where she's like, I really need to get back on my meds. Like I maybe actually need to borrow some money and get back on my meds because the narrator is starting to be the logical voice and I'm starting to be the illogical one. I think it's something like he's like ‘you were cooking noodles or whatever, but by the way you've left the stove on and you should probably turn that off.’

14:44

Holly: Before you go fight the zombies. Maybe make sure the house wasn't burned down.

14:50

Harley: And she's like, ‘oh fuck, he’s making sense.’ That’s when it's time to worry. Anyway, I gotta go fight some zombies. But yes, she definitely is a standout character. I would actually say so. Molly and the zombies are a big part of why I say this, I really found, I think that this would be better as a graphic novel.

15:11

Holly: I would agree with that.

15:14

Harley: Because there's so many very cool things visually that work. I can see how it would work as a graphic novel. Like, obviously, you've got that warrior babe thing and the swords cutting through the comic panels and all that stuff. But there's such a visual thing with the zombies where like, one of them's a radio DJ, and all that stuff. And it's like, can have that thing where he's talking from the radio booth. With the headphones on and things like that, because he does that DJ voice thing for a few of it.  I just feel like there's very visual elements of the story that would have worked really well in a graphic novel format. And it's got that edginess to it that is very graphic novel as well.

15:51

Holly: I completely agree with that.

15:54

Harley: That was just that, the whole time I was reading it. I was like, this is what I'm seeing. The ‘thwack’ with the shovel and the Santa teeth spraying across the page.

16:05

Holly: Very like Tank  Girl-esque

16:11

Harley: It's not as gory, but even that Sin City quality to it.

16:15

Holly: I could see it as Sin City meets Tank Girl, everything in black and white kind of thing. And then when she's off her meds, everything's in Technicolor. That could be like a cool…

16:25

Harley: Even done entirely in black and white, would be very cool with the sprays of…

16:30

Holly: Red and green because it's Christmas.

16:35

Harley: I like the way you think. I felt like it was a good story in the wrong format.

16:41

Holly: I'd agree with that.

16:44

Harley: Because I have quite a visual brain. And I do like to read things. It's not often that I make that call. So up until now, I would have probably said that Fight Club is the only novel I've read where I'm like, this is the wrong format for this story. Like that needed to be a movie. And I'm very glad it was turned into one because that was a story that was better told through that visual medium.

17:04

Holly: Absolutely. Do you think this would have made a good movie?

17:07

Harley: I think it's too short for a movie. Because when you actually take out all of the preamble of introducing the characters, it's quite short. So I think it would have been too short for a movie.

17:17

Holly: So it is a quick read. But I feel like both of us struggled through that first section. So it still took us a while to get through it. But then that second section, I powered through that really quickly. And I'm not a fast reader.

17:32

Harley: And this is where I think, again, that graphic novel format can be that like, you can have one or two pages of introduction to each character and it would have worked quite well across those things. You've got a few panels of storytelling and all that stuff. And some of that you can expand out because to a certain degree, you've got Theo the cop and Theo the pothead, who are the same person but two different sides of that coin. And then you've got Molly, the crazy lady of the town, and Kendra Warrior Babe, who's her other persona, and so they can have some extra space on the page. And then otherwise, you can skip straight through it. And I feel like we spend a lot of time with characters like Mavis, and the psychiatrist who was dating the scientist, where it's like, they needed to be named characters, but I don't know that we needed to really give a shit about them to be perfectly honest. And I think that you could have cut out a lot of that stuff. Because really, the only reason that we really needed any extra information on the scientist is because Theo was not taken seriously as a cop, because he was the town copper and he was a pothead and all that stuff. So when he hits a man, who just gets up and walks away, he's like, ‘I can't take these hairs that found in my wheel to the actual CSI people because they won't take me seriously and they're going to think that I was tripping balls. And so I'm going to take it to my friend to be like, you put these under microscope and tell me what they are?’ That's it.  And his whole obsession with zapping his balls. Again I feel like that would have been a funny like comic panel.

19:10

Holly: Yea, but it would have been like a page and then move on.

19:11

Harley: Maybe a couple of pages because you would have had a whole page like zap. Would have been like a full panel page.

19:19

Holly: But not as much page spaces it took up.

19:22

Harley: We have to have this whole backstory about how he'd been hard done by because his girlfriend who was obviously a bad match for him, and they just had sexual compatibility had left him and he was like ‘all women are the worst. So now I need to electroshock my balls until I'm no longer attracted to women.’ And what he discovered was, because he was doing it to mice as well, to rats to make it a real experiment not just developing a new fetish, which is a common fetish, but it also two fetishes, it's the like self-flagellation and then the electroshock. Baby, If you want to be a sad sack, be a sad sack. Just zap your balls and be a sad sack. You don't need to kill rats to make this happen but what he discovers is that eventually the rats, so he like zapped them every time when they go near a female rat in heat, every time they come up to be like Hey baby, how you doing? He zaps their balls. And what he discovers is that instead of learning to stop being attracted to female rats, they just develop a thing for being electrocuted.

20:21

Holly: Yes, because Pavlov already established this it’s conditioning.

20:25

Harley: Also every single sex worker ever can tell you that nothing will stop men from wanting to get some action, once they want some action, they will just go for it. The will just go ‘I've suddenly decided that I'm into being electrocuted, and now I can only get off when you're actively zapping my balls.’ Anyway, the important part is I think there was a lot of banging on about this, like it was a big section of it. And I think that in a comic format, it could have been as much of a section but you would have powered through it faster. And it would have been funnier in a visual format.

20:57

Holly: There were also quite a few images of the bat, which would have been quite funny to see.

21:00

Harley: Roberto the talking bat?

21:03

Holly: Roberto the talking bat, who helped to save the town as well.

21:10

Harley: Does he actually talk?

21:11

Holly: Well, the only person that he talks to is Molly.

21:13

Harley: On the page. So Lena, who kills Santa, who is actually her ex-husband, who's an abusive fuckhead, so she kills him in self-defense. But Tucker shows up, like he sees it happen along with the kid whose like ‘oh my God, Santa is dead’ and runs away, Tucker’s like ‘you okay? Let's bury the body.’ So they're in it together that they've killed this guy. And they've hidden the body and made it look like he's fallen off a cliff or something. Tucker has a pet fruit bat. And he frequently references Roberto, the fruit bat being able to talk. But it is one of those things where everyone's like, ‘anyway, there's this new pilot from out of town, who babbles on about his fruit bat talking.

22:00

Holly: But also, he witnessed a woman murder Santa, and then was like, ‘cool. I'll help you with the body.’ He's probably a bit off his rocker, too.

22:08

Harley: Certainly the way that he adapts to stuff and things. And you don't get a very good read on his character. Because he comes in as the like, ‘I’m DEA. But I'm not actually a cop. I'm just a pilot. I just helped them find, like marijuana plants but also they find meth labs and marijuana growing.

22:31

Holly: But he had to stress the actual cop out.

22:34

Harley: But the reason why this seems to come up is so that he can blackmail Theo. So Theo figures out that he's part of Dale's disappearance, because he finds fruit bat hairs in Dale's car, and the only person with a fruit bat is the one naughty pilot from out of town, who can then turn around and be like, ‘so I decided to turn away but I know what a massive crop looks like. We can fly over that area tomorrow, or I can continue to have weather malfunctions and not be able to go in that area, your call. So they have this weird alliance, but hate each other.

23:11

Holly: It's a mutually assured destruction there.

23:15

Harley: But anyway, but then he is whole motivation for helping bury Santa, is that he's lonely at Christmas. And he wants to fuck Lena. So he's like, 'I'll help you hide a dead body so that we can be not alone.’ But then they're actually a good match. And actually a great match. And I do feel like those logical jumps need to be explained in a novel whereas again, in the graphic novel format, you've only got so many panels and we're rolling with the crazy here.

23:45

Holly: May get a few like hearts beating out of chests, love heart eyes, done. Move on. And I was very confused with the size of this fruit bat because he was like wearing it as a hat at one point, but then also, it seemed to be like big in some areas. And maybe that was just me reading it wrong.

23:59

Harley: But also it hung from the top of a Christmas tree. And if it's big enough to wear as a hat, then isn't that too big?

24:07

Harley: And the fruit bats that I've come into contact with are small. I didn't actually think fruit bats were very big.

24:14

Holly: No, but then again, we already know. I don't nature very much, so I could be wrong.

24:19

Harley: Most of my interaction with bats is like going back to the car park after work. And then flying over and being like ‘oh cool a bat!' Or that time I nearly got hit by lightning, I was like, ‘it's so witchy and there's bats everywhere.’ And then we nearly got electrocuted. And my friend was like, ‘Can you not?’ Because you were literally here being like, ‘it's so magical. I'm feeling all the witchy vibe.’ And then we nearly died.

24:48

Holly: You were very excited about it, I got a very long Voice Note.

24:50

Harley: Basically being like, ‘so I’m Thor now.’

24:52

Holly: That’s exactly what it said.

25:00

Harley: And you’re not the only person I said that to.

25:02

Holly: I don’t doubt that for a second.

25:05

Harley: To be fair, Meg’s response was, ‘why do I get the gypsy curse and you get to be the God of Thunder’ and I didn’t have a good response for that. I’m not the one who got her hair stolen by a gypsy in the middle of Paris so I’m not the one who got gypsy cursed.’

25:19

Holly: So moral of the story. Don’t get hit by lightning and also don’t let someone steal your hair in the middle of Paris.

25:26

Harley: Let might be a bit of a strong word. Pro tip: Have hair extensions then whoever hair they’re stealing is not yours and you can be like ‘well that sucks for someone somewhere.’ Anyway, the gypsy curse has been a long-standing joke. So good times. Back to the actual thing we're talking about. I really feel like a detour into I'm Thor and my friend has a gypsy curse, is not that off-tap for this episode.

25:58

Holly: It feels very much on par with…

26:00

Harley: …On theme for Pine Cove. It's California, right?

26:01

Holly: I'm not sure. It's somewhere where fruit bats are not native. That's all I could tell you.

26:05

Harley: So there's lots of pine trees and it comes up as an issue because there's a big storm. Which I'm not sure actually serves much of a purpose beyond there getting to be like mud and gore and zombies everywhere. Which again, is very visual and to get trees to fall down to it. They have battering rams and stuff?

26:27

Holly: They did have battering rams, the zombies had battering rams.

26:30

Harley: Because the trees are falling down because there's no taproots in pine trees apparently. According to the book, if that is factually incorrect, and you're somebody who knows that about trees.

26:38

Holly: Well, I just remember that I was looking at the difference between a graveyard and a cemetery. So I'm just comparing to that for a moment.

26:44

Harley: And to circle back around to the start of the episode.

26:50

Harley: I'm not looking at if pine trees have tap roots. If that’s wrong, come for the author, not for me.

26:53

Holly: So graveyard, which was previously called a churchyard.

26:57

Harley: It was a graveyard, not a cemetery.

27:00

Holly: So cemeteries have freestanding. New places for burying people independent of churches and graveyards called cemeteries.

27:05

Harley: We need that the more you know meme.

27:10

Holly: There was no church there. So it was a cemetery.

27:13

Harley: No, there was a church there. They were in the church having their little Christmas Mingler. So they do this, whatever they call it in the book.

27:24

Holly:  Where it's a friend's Christmas Eve thing.

27:26

Harley: It was something about the like, because there was this whole thing about the town having this like Christmas tradition of people being lonely and shacking up with whoever they could get near them. So they weren't alone for Christmas. Which is not a vibe I get behind. I'm like, I will be alone for Christmas. Yay! I won't. I'm spending time with my family.

27:45

Harley: But there's this whole thing. And so a few of the characters, so like Molly, and Lena and the bartender, Mavis, came together and created this singles Christmas event, where it was like, ‘we can spend time with people’ and like a Friendsmas. But it was based around them being single. So I can't remember what the official name of it was. But it was like a singles Christmas. And then it just became a tradition where it was like, you don't have to be single. So like Lena is shacked up with Tucker, the pilot. Molly and Theo have been in a long-term relationship and all that stuff. So yes, they do continue it past the point, it stops being a singles mixer at some stage, and becomes the town Christmas party, but it's done in the church. So they're all in the church. So it's a graveyard.

28:28

Holly: Yes. So in my head, there was a road and a forest and a cemetery in the forest, separate to the church and graveyard. But no, it makes sense that obviously the graveyard will be next to church. And if it was a graphic novel, I would have picked up on that.

28:43

Harley: I have to say, too, I did not realize that she was right near the church, the whole altercation that ends up with the like Santa’s dead and his wish happening is Lena is cutting down trees, illegally essentially, that her ex-husband has planted to deal with some like environmentalist. So basically, he's a developer and he wants to do something and his way of getting it done is to just be like, ‘Yes, I've planted 150 like pine trees, which are native to the area. Fuck off and leave me alone.’

29:15

Holly: We’re narrowing it down. Bats are not native to the area. But pine trees are.

29:20

Harley: I’m pretty sure they say it's California at one stage.

29:24

Holly: Makes sense why it's called Pine Cove if it's full of pine trees, developer or not.

29:29

Harley: But anyway, so Lena is illegally cutting it down. And it's been a big issue for him as a developer, because every time, every year someone steals some of these trees because they are good Christmas trees because they're not like 100-year-old pines. They're relatively recent. So he's like, I'm going to go catch this person who's stealing my Christmas trees and turns out it's his ex-wife. So he's like, ‘fuck you bitch’ and I think goes to attack her and she hits him with a shovel and yada yada. But I got the vibe that that was in a completely separate area to where the church was and it wasn't until Raziel was there being like, ‘somewhere in this area, there is a Santa bring this lot back to life and then I'mma fuck off back to God.’

30:06

Harley: I didn't realize that those things happened close together until that exact moment. Now it makes sense why we spent some time in the graveyard hanging out with the ghosts. But yes, it does spend a bit of time I will say this book, bouncing between, reality and unreality in ways where it's like, sometimes you're in like Molly's head. And so the bat talks and you're like that’s because she's crazy or whatever. But then you also have moments where we're not in anybody's head, where like the ghosts of the graveyard are talking. But it has that crazy unreality thing, and that's what makes it hard with Roberto the bat to know if he actually talks or if Molly's just crazy, because even if it's just one other character, other people reference him talking and other characters have whole conversations about him talking. But then the only time we see him talk is to a crazy person. So it's that thing of like, what's real and what's not. What's a standard supernatural thing that can happen in this universe? And what's crazy people gonna crazy. Well, so to a certain degree, Molly is Kendra Warrior Babe because she literally leaps on top of cars and cuts down zombies.

31:16

Holly: That was a beautiful scene. So the whole town is stuck in this church. They've sent out her hubby, the cop, obviously to go.

31:29

Harley: So the whole town except Molly. So she and Theo had a fight and she decided to stay home. But then the angel shows up on her doorstep.

31:38

Holly: The angel and the bat.

31:44

Harley: So the angel shows up. And he's like, ‘I'm an angel.’ And she's like, ‘No, you're not.’ And he's like, bam, scar healed. And then the bat shows up. And it's like everybody in the church is in danger.

31:50

Holly: Very Lassie-esque, this bat.

31:53

Harley: And then she trots off to the church to save the day. Meanwhile, in the church, they've sent out the town cop, her husband.

32:00

Holly: To go and like sort out what's going on. And he's just very much ill-equipped to deal with this.

32:05

Harley: So they've sent him to the car, or to someone's car to get to safety or get the gun or whatever. So he has left his gun in the car. Meanwhile, Dale, Santa, they buried him with his gun. And at one point they turn around to Tucker and like, ‘why the fuck would you bury him with his gun?’ And Tucker's like, ‘I didn't expect him to come back to life. I didn't think it would be an issue.’

32:27

Holly:  And so they were concerned that someone had left their keys in their car and that one of the Zombies was going to drive the car through the door instead of using the battering ram.

32:36

Harley: Well, yes. So there was this whole thing of how do we get out to get to safety or to get help or any of that stuff. Well, the zombies are trying to get in to eat our brains so that they can take a trip to IKEA. And it was kind of this do-or-die moment. So Theo's got to the car, but the zombies are all there and he's trying to fight them off, and he's not winning that battle. Meanwhile, at the church, zombies have figured out that if they barricade the doors and set a fire that they can get everybody out of the church because it will be on fire.

33:05

Holly: Yeah, barbecue brains, just as good.

33:09

Harley: Well, Mavis did promise a barbecue. So it was this kind of do-or-die moment, where there's no hope and whatever shall we do? And then suddenly, Molly appears, sword in hand.

33:21

Holly: Molly turns up so she had broken her Broadsword, chopping down the Christmas tree, which is at a hilarious scene earlier in the book. She's then found the sword that her husband has got her.

33:29

Harley: So she's kicked him out being like, ‘you’re an asshole.’ And he's like, ‘well, your present’s up there, for what it’s worth.’

33:36

Holly: So she goes up and helps the present.

33:40

Harley: Realizes that he does actually understand and love her. She wants to go see him. But she's dealing with the angel and talking bat.

33:49

Holly: And naturally takes a sword with her, gets to the cemetery, sees all these zombies, leaps up on top of a car, and it's just this gorgeous scene of her like slicing through them, heads are rolling. Arms are flying. Body parts just going everywhere. And it is a very cool scene, Shaun of the Dead kind of style. It would be great as a graphic novel.

34:14

Harley: I do think it's worth mentioning. I'm going a little off-topic here. But a lot of these characters feature in his other novels. Which is not particularly helpful for us, because we haven't read them. But this is like the Christmas episode of a TV show.

34:24

Holly: So if these characters feature in other novels, why do we have so much backstory for them?

34:34

Harley: I think it might be his writing style. Well, I don't know because I've not read the other stuff, but there's no reason for it to be there other than that's his writing style.

34:42

Holly: I did enjoy his humour. I might look into reading something else. Just some little things, like there was no chapter 13. He was like we're just eliminating chapter 13. Because 13’s an unlucky number. So there's just no chapter 13.

35:00

Harley: I did not notice that. I power through anything that’s not relevant information to me like the number of the chapter or what they’re called, mostly.

35:10

Holly: Well, in my version it literally said, ‘there is no chapter 13 because. There is no chapter 13 because 13’s an unlucky number.’

35:15:

Harley: I don’t think mine said that. Either that or I forgot as soon as I read it.

35:19

Harley: I actually think he's a good storyteller. He's funny, I just think it's the wrong format. That's it. Because it was funny. And I did laugh at lots of it. But I could very much see the comic panels in my head. I do have a very visual brain. So I do often, like see things in my head, but I don't usually see a different format, I see the world the author’s building or whatever. Whereas for this one, all I could see was the comic panels.

35:45

Holly: Probably should have Googled to make sure that it's not also a comic book before we started. Imagine if it was, and we've just rambled on for pages.

35:53

Harley: But I think at the end of the day, the way that we consumed it, because it's like reading Flight Club and saying I feel this would be better as a movie. It is a movie, it is better as a movie. But at the end of the day, if the only assessment that you're making is off the book, then the feedback for the book is, this is a good story in the wrong format. I would say the same thing about this, if it is a graphic novel, I don't think it is. But if it is a graphic novel, and that's out there, I'd be really interested to read it because I do feel like that is a much better way of telling this story. And I'd be interested to see if that actually holds true. But at the end of the day, judging on the book alone, it's a good story. And it's funny, but it's the wrong format. And I think that assessment stands.

36:41

Harley: I will say actually, this is one I didn't look up. Like often, I've referenced in earlier episodes that all look up what other people think and all that. I really didn't with this one, I just read it and was done.

36:54

Holly: Yes, apparently there's an IMDB page about it. Potentially they started and then they changed their mind?

37:02

Harley: I wouldn't have made it into a movie. I feel like if he's got a lot of other characters, like Pine Cove could potentially be a TV show, because they definitely were characters that could expand out into other things. But this story is at best a Christmas episode.

37:14

Holly: No graphic novel as far as I can see.

37:18

Harley: Well, like I said, even if there was a graphic novel, that judging it on the basis of the book alone, it is a good story. It's just in the wrong format. In my opinion, which, for what that's worth, any other thoughts?

37:32

Holly: No, I think we covered it all.

37:36

Harley: Yes, I'm not sure that as much as to say, it did feel like a really quick read once you got through that slog of the start.

37:41

Holly: And it's a simple, just a comedy. There's nothing to uncover. There's no deeper meaning.

37:50

Harley: Which actually is a great example of the fact that not all stories have to be deeper meaning stuff. And not all stories that lack these, like deep esoteric meaning are like chick flicks, or romance novels, or fairy porn, or whatever. It can be something completely independent of those formats, and still have merit. Because I do think it has merit. As much as I have been harping on about the wrong format thing. I think that the core story itself is good. I think he is funny. And there definitely are moments in there, if anything, I think that graphic novel format would emphasize his humour, because he is funny. And it is a good story. And I think that idea of characters taking things so literally, with no real concept of how earth works, is fantastic. Raziel is a really funny character. And funny because he is very literal. And so it is this thing for that scene that I talked about where he comes into the bar, it's like ‘I need a child.’ There is that humour that comes purely from the dichotomy of him being like, ‘I need a child so that I can grow on their Christmas wish and just make this miracle happen so I can get on my merry way.’ Meanwhile, the characters who come from our world and have our understanding of things are like ‘this man just walked into a bar and asked for a child, what the hell?’ And that nuanced understanding of the question so that like, there is a great deal of humour there. And I think that's really well done and all that.

39:25

Holly: I do like the way that he’s done a few elements of humour really well. There are scenes that are just funny, chaotic, ridiculous things that happen. There are jokes where the punch line just lands really well. And then there are little things like what you've just described, but he hasn't harped on explaining why it's funny. Which is where I think sometimes comedy falls down, is where they're gone, ‘this is funny,’ and then they've proceeded to make the characters explain why it's funny. Just let it be and if the reader or the watcher or whatever it is, doesn't get it, they don’t get it and that's fine, move on.

40:04

Harley: Nothing makes a joke less funny than explaining it. Nothing is funnier though, than watching somebody who makes a bad joke be forced to explain it when you deliberately misunderstand the question. ‘I don’t get it. So explain to me why sexual assault’s funny.’ To be fair, the author does not make any sexual assault jokes or things like that. I think the closest that comes is the characters, or does he?

40:29

Holly: I was going to say, I think he does a really good job of skirting on that line of ooh we can’t say that.

40:46

Harley: He does it a few times at different points in the book.  But that scene that I've described is actually a very good example of how he treads around that level of humour we get, but the characters in the bar, like they all unite against him being like get the fuck out. Because they are like this weird man is asking for a child. And we will not have that here. We get that it's a joke, like a pedophilia joke. But it's not done in a way that mocks people who have experienced that and it literally is like, one character interprets something one way, when it's meant a completely different way, it's not harped on about, it's not done any of that stuff. We know going in that this is going to be the angel and that he's literally looking to grant a child's Christmas wish, he's just like ‘any child, I just want to grant a wish and get the fuck on with my day.’

41:27

Holly: So even though it is that joke, there's no maliciousness behind it.

41:31

Harley: And it's not done in a way that is uncomfortable, or where you feel like you're laughing at victims of sexual assault or any of that stuff. So I actually think that he handles that edginess very well, because he doesn't try and push that line, where it's like, look how edgy I am. I'm so edgy. And you do have to do that thing, and often that is when guys are like I'm so edgy, is when I will do the like, sorry explain that joke to me one more time. I don't get it. Explain how it's funny. And then when they give up and go. It's not funny when I have to explain that. You know what, I’m just going to move on. I don’t think I like you much.

42:10

Holly: However, we do like Christopher Moore. We think he is funny.

42:16

Harley: Yes, and I think that he very much knows when to stop, like, stop explaining. Or, don't push the joke any further.

42:24

Holly: And full circles a lot of jokes, too, which was really beautiful. Like, very early on in the book, Molly is like, ‘I want you to fuck me.’ And then her partner does. And then she's had an orgasm, and she's like, ‘I'm going to wash your Volvo later.’ And he's like, ‘oh okay. so that's my reward. I thought this was the reward.’

42:48

Harley:  She says, ‘no, this was the reward for helping me, the Volvo is the reward for the orgasm I just got.’

42:53

Holly: And then later on in the book, it comes back and he's like, ‘I guess you're not going to wash my Volvo.’

43:00

Harley: And you know, what I think he does well, is the like, a lot of these jokes, especially with that crazy element. There is the potential there to lean into mocking the victim. And I think that he manages to not do that. Because he actually is very respectful of how he talks about Molly and all that. Like from the get-go. She crazy. But its not done in a way where it's making fun of, so as much as we can laugh at those moments of craziness and things like that. I think that's consistent through the humour that he displays throughout the book, he is that as much as it's about things that I think people who want to be edgy, tend to veer towards, because he's not trying to be edgy, it seems like genuinely funny. He manages to do it in a way that is not disrespectful or mocking or any of that stuff. So it's like we're laughing with Molly. We're not laughing at Molly.

43:57

Holly: The whole town. Every character is very respectful of that. Like she's a town crazy lady.

44:04

Harley: Across the board of his humour when the craziness comes up because it is there, and not just for Molly, but that blurring of reality and unreality and all that stuff. But there is a lot of moments of those miscommunications because everybody's existing in different realities and all that stuff. And the closest to irritating humour or irritating edginess or whatever is actually the scientist zapping his own balls. And it's not actually the humour part that irritates me. It’s fucking another one of those men who's having a sook but he actually writes it very well because that's why it irritates me is because I’ve met that guy, who's like I'm so hard done by women are the worst and guys like me, I'll never get any, so I need to zap myself to like, ruin my sexual desire. And I'm poor me… I’m like ‘god, just buy a fleshlight and get over yourself.’ But I've met that guy. The reason why I found it irritating is because he's done a good job of explaining who that guy is. I don't think that he's would have been such a prominent character for this story.

45:06

Holly: He must be a prominent character in other stories.

45:12

Harley: But at any rate the time that we did spend with him that he was a very realistic character. And that the only time that anything really veered into the like oh fuck this guy for me, which I think was actually the author doing a good job, I think that this is an excellent study in how to be funny about things that can go either way.

45:32

Holly: Yes, without being condescending.

45:33

Harley: Well, I think that's how you are actually funny about it. And he's done a really incredible job of that.

45:40

Holly: Yes, I think I will read more of his work.

45:44

Harley: Yes, I'd be interested to see some of his other stuff. And I probably would have an easier time. I feel like maybe he's an author that like your second or third book of his is better because you know, his writing style. So there's a bit of a slog at the start, but once he gets into his characters…

45:59

Holly: I’ve just had a realization. I did wonder why it said, Pine Cove Number Three, dickhead, it would be the third book in the Pine Cove Series.

46:10

Harley: Ok yep, it took her a minute but she did arrive.

46:13

Holly: More than a minute.

46:14

Harley: It took her 52 minutes.

46:15

Holly: And a week and a half since reading the book.

46:19

Harley: You got there in the end.

46:22

Holly: I did get there in the end.

46:26

Harley: We're going to leave it on that nice note. It's probably one of the few times I feel like in this podcast, we've had a bit of a nuanced thing that ends with but we really like what the author has done. So let's end on a high note. I know we have Taylor Jenkins Reid where we fan-girled hard, but often we are nitpicky. And this is one where we're being a little bit nitpicky, but also actually overall, really, I have high praise for what he's done well.

46:55

Holly: Especially seeing as it’s I don’t think something you read. It's certainly not something that I read, normally. This kind of thing.

46:59

Harley: It was definitely out of the box for us.

47:04

Holly: And I'm definitely not the person to sit down and read a Christmas novel.

47:07

Harley: No. So we actually had to go and seek out a Christmas novel when we were like, ‘do we want to do a Christmas episode? Yes, we want to do a Christmas episode.’

47:15

Holly: ‘Can we do like a Die Hard style Christmas? Where it’s not really Christmas.’ No, but this one….

47:20

Harley: Have you seen a thing that's like Die Hard is not a Christmas movie? It's a Harry Potter movie. He's the chosen one hiding from Alan Rickman.

47:27

Holly: Oh my god, no!

47:30

Harley: So it’s not a Christmas movie. It’s a Harry Potter movie.

47:33

Holly: It’s a Harry Potter Christmas Special!

47:37

Harley: Anyway, I'll just leave you with that fun little aside.

47:40

Holly: Well, thanks for joining us for our first and possibly only Christmas episode.

47:44

Harley: So we definitely chose this book because it seemed like it was going to be funny. And we were like, if we're going to do a Christmas episode, or we're going to do an actual Christmas episode, not a Die Hard Christmas episode, let’s at least try for humour. And I think he delivered on that. So, much appreciated. Merry Christmas. And to all a good night. And something like that.

48:05

Holly: And something like that.

48:08

Harley: As always, if you haven't already left a five-star review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, you should totally do that.

48:16

Holly: Absolutely. What a lovely Christmas present for us.

48:18

Harley: That’s our Christmas wish. Make it come true. I've already got my two front teeth.

48:20

Holly: And our P.O. Box is on our website, bimbobookclub.com, If you feel like sending actual Christmas presents.

48:26

Harley: You can also find more show notes and episode descriptions and all that fun stuff on our website. In the meantime, all relevant links will be in our show notes on whatever platform you're listening to this on and you can find us on all the social media platforms.

48:43

Holly: Merry Christmas and bimbos out.

48:43

Harley: Merry Christmas. bimbos out.

Where the Crawdads Sing Transcript

© Bimbo Media

00:03

Holly: This is Bimbo Book Club with Holly.

00:12

Harley: And Harley. Hello friends and welcome to another episode of Bimbo Book Club.

00:19

Holly: Welcome, welcome.

00:20

Harley: How are you doing today, Holly?

00:21

Holly: I'm doing all right how are you doing?

00:23

Harley: You know, trucking along. Nothing to complain about in the last hour, at least. And I don't remember any further back than that.

00:29

Holly: So, I can think of something to complain about in the last hour. Peanut just spilled my coffee everywhere.

00:35

Harley: Yeah, well, that's uneventful in my line of existing. There wasn't much left though, was there?

00:41

Holly: No there wasn't much left.

00:42

Harley: You say that like you’re missing out on coffee.

00:44

Holly: No, it was cold. I just feel bad about your carpet.

00:47

Harley: I'm used to it. You saw how quickly I was like, I've got 14 different cleaning supplies.

00:51

Holly: Yeah, and half of them were empty.

00:54

Harley: Guess why.

00:56

Holly: Anyway, yeah. So today we are talking about Where the Crawdad Sings by–

00:5

Harley: It’s Where the Crawdads Sing isn't it?

00:56

Holly: Dammit, I always get this wrong.

01:06

Harley: There’s one crawdad singing away

01:09

Holly: There’s only one crawdad and it’s singing many songs. Because I either say crawdad sings or crawdads sing.

01:17

Harley: Yes, many crawdads one sing

01:19

Holly: Crawdad is a bird right?

01:23

Harley: Actually, got no idea. What is a crawdad? I thought it was like a crustacean or something, but I’m probably wrong. I'm thinking like crawfish. But I feel like that is…

01:35

Holly: Surely, it's like a seagull.

01:37

Harley: It's a bird, is a crawdad a bird. Oh, no! Crayfish or crawdads are crustaceans that live in freshwater environments throughout the world except for India and Antarctica.

01:43

Holly: But can they sing? How do we find out if they sing? Surely that’s a Googleable thing? Oh, that's not what I expected.

01:49

Harley: Yeah, it's like a blue lobster.

01:51

Holly: It's blue lobster. Probably more like a yabby than a lobster actually.

01:55

Harley: Yeah, literally a crayfish also known as yabby in Australia. Crawdads are known by various common names and come in a wide variety of sizes and colors. Wait, can yabbies sing?  

02:10

Holly: Was this just some sort of obscure reference for something that we missed out on?

02:16

Harley: This is literally from Where the Crawdads Sing on Wikipedia. So, they can't sing. And the phrase ‘go way out yonder where the crawdads sing’ just means as far in the bush where critters are wild are still behaving like critters. So, it basically means go so far out in the bush that -

02:31

Holly: Ohhhh right, so Kya lives where the crawdads sing, because she's like a wild, anyway! Back to our intro! Today we're doing Where the Crawdads Sing.

02:40

Harley: Oh no, we’re leaving that in! Nice try, trying to get it out. So, for any Australian out there, crawdad is not a bird. It's a yabby.

02:50

Holly: Why did I think it was a bird?

02:52

Harley: Because most of her drawings and conversations and things like that are with the birds.

02:56

Holly: I would have put money on it that it was like a seagull.

03:00

Harley: See, I think because they talk about it in the book. I think that's where I got the like crustacean thing from but then as soon as you said it with enough authority, I was like, I must be wrong.

03:09

Holly: Moral of the story, say anything with confidence, people will think you are correct.

03:14

Harley: Or at least some people who are prone to questioning their own judgment even when they're actually correct.

03:18

Holly: Yes. It's one of the few things that my dad taught me. If you don't know something, make it up with confidence. And I feel like that's how he's gotten so far in life and is possibly how I've gotten so far in life.

03:34

Harley: Freely admitting that I've got no fucking clue seems to be doing alright for me, but certainly not as well as you and your dad. So maybe I should stop admitting when I've got no fucking clue when I need to ask the question and start just being like, Yes, I know things.

03:47

Holly: Yes. Don't Google it. You don't need to.

03:49

Harley: You'd be surprised how often I'm like, I've got no idea. I'll Google it. I Google it and then go Okay, so the answer is ‘a crawdad is a yabby. It's a crustacean’ and people go Wow, you're so smart! And I'm like, I literally googled it in front of you. You literally watched me go and find the information.

04:04

Holly: All I have done is prove that I know how to use Google.

04:07

Harley: Yep. Like I didn't know the answer to this until that, and this is information that is just as accessible to you. You're holding the same device in your hand that I used to look this up. People are like yes, but you actually looked it up. So, wow smart. Is this the takeaway? I don't know that it is but all right, sure. Let's go with that. Anyway, now that we've established what a crawdad is, we are doing Where the Crawdads Sing by Delia Owens, which has like massively taken off as it's I think it was Reese Witherspoon did it? It was her book club. And she's got a really smart system set up where she has an, I want to say publishing company. What is it for films? Production company, she has a production company. Holly and I are having a great time with words today. Such a great time. Apparently, I can't remember who's who.

04:58

Holly: If I have to be Harley, does that mean I get the great tits too?

05:03

Harley: You already have great tits.

05:04

Holly: Yeah, but yours are greater, in volume.

05:06

Harley: Definitely greater in volume, greater pains in my ass too. Yeah, so Reese Witherspoon has a book club. And then she has a production company. So often the books that she skyrockets to fame, because she's basically the new Oprah's book club where anything she recommends suddenly gets massive. She often will recommend books after she's already signed the contract to have them as a production company thing. So, she's basically guaranteed movie rights when they've got a big enough audience because she's put it in front of most people's faces. She's got the production, rights.

05:40

Holly: Yeah, it's a really beautiful turn key operation, she's a smart cookie, that one. All she has to do is read a book and identify that it has movie potential, and then utilize the platform she already has.

05:51

Harley: And it's an everybody wins the thing, because it's easy to be like, Oh, well, then she is scamming people, but at the end of the day.

05:56

Holly: She’s not scamming anybody.

05:59

Harley: Yeah, but you know what people like, like, especially a woman who comes up with a savvy idea like that. They're like, the audacity?

06:04

Holly: But it's like she's hiding it.

06:07

Harley: But it's also one of those things where if it's a crappy book, it won't take off, no matter how many noses as you put it in front of because people will try it and go, this is awful. And then she'll lose credibility for future stuff. So, it's in her best interest to recommend good books with good potential. But also, it then means for the author, there are plenty of authors out there who would never have access to that level of exposure, that suddenly have book and movie deals and massive audiences and a name that, like name recognition that they can use to have even better deals for their next book or the book after that, or you know, so on and so forth. So, I think it's very, very clever on her part. And I think when I say that, I certainly say it with nothing but respect.

06:47

Holly: So recently, this was released as a film. We have seen the film, we have feelings about the film. We have feelings about the book. We have feelings about a lot of things. We just have feelings. In general. There are some we shut down. There are some we share on the internet.

07:02

Harley: I didn't say we weren't keeping them all in a box. very tightly locked box, but we have them. Anyway. So, the book is by Delia Owens. And she is pretty interested in her room. So, before we get into Crawdads itself, do you want to talk a little bit about Delia?

07:19

Holly: So, Delia Owens and her husband Mark, and then her stepson whose Mark’s son, Christopher are all reportedly still wanted by Zambian authorities in regards to the murder of an alleged poacher in 1995. So, the murder of the alleged poacher was televised in a 1996, ABC Turning Point doco titled Deadly Game: The Mark and Delia Owens story. So, the doco traces the conservation efforts of the Owens couple, who have also written a couple of nonfiction books about their time as American conservationists in Africa and Botswana, battling - which is their word, not mine - poachers. The murder is actually featured in this ABC doco the cameraman shows the alleged poacher laying on the ground already shot. And then we see him being fatally shot again by someone off-camera. They just like straight up asked the camera guy who it was, and he said it was the stepson Christopher who shot the poacher, but the fam has stuck to their story that they don't know anything. They weren't there. They have no clue what happened. But then they obviously like legged it out of the country.

08:18

Harley: My understanding was there were some other controversies as well about them treating poachers quite badly or allowing mistreatment of poachers on their land.

08:27

Holly: Yeah so, there were a few other instances of Mark throwing firecrackers and things.

08:32

Harley: And having them tied to trees in the sun. And obviously, they've denied all of this, like nobody's going to turn around and be like, Yes, yes, I have routinely condoned and participated in the torture and mistreatment of other human beings. Yeah, I only believe animals deserve good treatment.

08:46

Holly: So, there's no statute of limitation on murder in Zambia. So, they’re still wanted for questioning even though it's been nearly 30 years. Oh, we're old. So particularly towards the like, release date of the movie, there were a lot of people coming out and saying that, like Where the Crawdads Sing is sort of like a confession, because there is a murder that happens in this movie, book, all the above. But personally, I think that's a bit of a stretch.

09:15

Harley: I do. I think a lot of the perceived similarity comes from the justification of the murder. So, the murder in the book is justified, at least to the characters. I mean, obviously you can then go into a moral argument about is murder ever justified and this that the other and but to the characters in the book, it's justified. And that's one of the kinds of moments of conflict is the like, one did she do it? And two, if she did, so what?

09:40

Holly: Yeah, so the book kind of focuses around this murder, and it happens sort of in two time periods. So, one is her growing up. Kya, our main character, growing up in the marshland as the marsh girl, and then watching as her family deserts her and whatnot. And then the other time period is the courtroom as this court case is playing out. While she's being trialed for murder.

10:01

Harley: It kind of runs forward and backward into the like, key point of the novel, which is the murder.

10:05

Holly: Which is the murder. I think that's done quite well.

10:09

Harley: I mean, it's brilliantly done. I actually have to say, regardless of her questionable character as a human, as a writer she's pretty fantastic. I think it was a very well-written novel.

10:19

Holly: I think the novel was well-written. I think the background, the descriptions, scene setting was done really, really, well. I think some of the dialogue was a bit flat. We didn't really see a whole lot of character development.

10:34

Harley: Yeah. But I think that not every story, as much as we like to make everything a hero's journey. Not everything is about personal development or character development, and I think she does a very good job of telling a story that like, I mean, the marsh is arguably the main character above and beyond even Kya. She obviously cares very much about nature and that kind of thing. And the way you can tell it's that conservation thing where it's like, I think you can tell that she has that real deep love of nature in its rawest form, its most untouched form because it really does read like a love letter to that wild.

11:11

Holly: And it wasn't quite poetic. The descriptions of some of the animals and the creatures, apparently not the crawdads, though.

11:18

Harley: I think she described it quite well. I think you just tuned out stuff that didn't suit what you thought crawdads were.

11:24

Holly: But yeah, there was no detail that was too small. Like, she included even the way that wings would flutter and it was so poetic.

11:32

Harley: And it’s true to the main character because the main character was also obsessed with that wildness. So, she became a conservationist in a way. Not necessarily in the I went to school and am a scientist kind of way that Delia Owens would have. But, in that, like being a creature of the wild country, and in fact, that was one of my criticisms of the movie versus the book is in the book she's like a wild creature. They describe her in a lot of ways where it's like, I guess she's a wild creature, and that she doesn't know her social etiquette and things like that. But she's also a wild creature in terms of she's often hiding from authorities and things like that. And she disappears into the marshes in the way that like panthers and things disappear into the country. And so, it's that thing of like, you know, what, you are doing something out in the wild and you turn around, and all of a sudden you realize there's like, a deer there, or, like a bear or whatever. I mean, in Australia, it's like a kangaroo or, I don't know, obviously, kangaroos. To be honest when I've turned around and been like, Holy fuck, there's a thing there. Like snakes or goannas.

12:27

Holly: Don’t tell me that.

12:28

Harley: Oh, but it's like… Oh, are you scared of kangaroos?

12:31

Holly: I'm terrified of kangaroos. I am, don’t you know this about me? I am terrified of kangaroos. Okay, I actually have a reason. So, when I was really little, my family went on holiday up in Queensland, we're at the Australia zoo. And there are heaps of kangaroos there. I probably was about three. I think this is my first ever memory that has just solidified in my brain. I turned around and this fucking ginormous kangaroo had reared up on its tail and was going to kick me and my dad punched in the face. So, I think I'm allowed to be afraid of kangaroos.

13:09

Harley: But as a general rule, they won’t be coming near you. Not like, millimeters away. But you'll see in the distance in the bush where it's like, there's grass, I think, because they freeze because they don't want to be seen by you. They want to just live their lives far away from you.

13:26

Holly: That would be great. They could live their lives really far away from me.

13:29

Harley: So, they will freeze. And if you're not paying attention, because they go so still in that way that animals can, if you're not paying attention, you won't notice them. Because they want to be not noticed. They want to just go quietly. But I mean, the same thing can be said for I think all or the majority of wild animals is that like, you know, even things that are predators. Because the thing with a lot of Australian wildlife like kangaroos and koalas and things, is that they're not cuddly. The way that they're sold to tourists is cuddly, but they're not necessarily predators, so they won't hunt you down. Whereas if you look at something like an alligator or crocodile so we have crocodiles in Australia, but also alligators and the general rule they're not like running down the street be like, I'm gonna bite you. So, you'll crocodiles, you're more likely to be chased by a goanna. I'm not saying it won't happen.

14:10

Holly: I don’t want to be scared of goannas too.

14:13

Harley: How are you not already scared of goannas?

14:18

Holly: I just don’t think I've come into contact with one, right? I'm probably not gonna go pick it up and give it a cuddle.

14:24

Harley: I wouldn't, no. Have you ever seen them shoot up–well, you wouldn't have if you've never had contact.

14:28

Holly: No, but I wouldn't naturally run away from them. I don't think.

14:33

Harley: Yeah, I wouldn’t, they’re faster than you. I don’t care how fast you run, they are faster than you.

14:36

Holly: So, I can't outrun them, and I can't outclimb them. What am I meant to do?

14:40

Harley: Just stay the fuck away. Leave them alone, let them do their thing, back off. Back off, but don't back off in a run, back off slowly.

14:47

Holly: So, I am big like is that when you are trying to scare something they fluff themselves up?

14:56

Harley: Goannas will rear up, because that's how they fight each other.

14:58

Holly: Okay, so don't rear up to a goanna.

15:01

Harley: Just don't go near goannas. Let’s not have a bimbos go camping night.

15:07

Holly: I've been camping exactly once.

15:09

Harley: I went camping quite a bit as a kid so lots of people look at me like there's no way you would ever do anything like that's not glamping camping. I'm like, No, I can camp camp.

15:17

Holly: I like showers.

15:18

Harley: Me too, but I can survive without one.

15:20

Holly: I could survive without a shower. But not if there are goannas and fucking kangaroos around.

15:24

Harley: I’ll take goannas and kangaroos over spiders any day.

15:27

Holly: I'll take a spider and put it outside. That's okay. I'm happy to deal with spiders.

15:31

Harley: On the off chance we find a kangaroo in our house, I'll deal with that. For anybody, not Australian, this is not an issue that we are ever going to face.

15:43

Holly: No, we definitely don't ride kangaroos to school. And anyway, back to our book at hand.

15:49

Harley: Yeah. So anyway, the point of this is that the way that she writes, the main character is very much like an animal. And I think that's like, obviously, that's a very hard thing to cast because most humans don't have that kind of stillness that wild animals have. But I think that they failed in a way that is really fundamental to the character of Kaya –no issue with the actor, I think that the actress who played her did a perfectly good job. I just think that it was a character that was written in a way that was difficult to translate to a person.

16:19

Holly: Yeah, so she was written quite skittish, like a feral cat that is scared but curious. Whereas on screen, she kind of came across as meek.

16:29

Harley: And I think not other enough,

16:33

Holly: Yes!, definitely not other enough, which I think is one of the very big topics and themes throughout the novel is the fact that she is other, and she is treated as other particularly throughout this court case.

16:43

Harley: That’s something her lawyers said.

16:44

Holly: Yeah, because she's not like for the most part, no one even refers to her by her name, they call her the marsh girl, which is so othering.

16:54

Harley: And they have a bit of a thing of like the marsh people and not the marsh people. And particularly in her case because both her parents leave. So, her mom leaves, and then her siblings leave, and then her father disappears, probably getting drunk and drowning in the marsh, let's be honest. And nobody comes. So, there is like a truancy officer that comes through. But she goes to school once and then disappears. And basically, nobody in the town recognizes that there is basically this child out in the marsh raising themselves.

17:24

Holly: I'm sorry, like, she's seven, I get that she's resilient and stuff, but in the real world, like she's like, seven when she's, or younger, when she's left alone.

17:33

Harley: I mean, I think people do things like that when they have no choice, but they shouldn't, she shouldn't have been put in that position.

17:42

Holly: So there were a few people throughout the book that were kind to her that helped her out. And one, in particular, is Jumpin’ who is the owner of the essentially, a little convenience store, but like it's floating.

17:56

Harley: Yeah, so it's on the edge of the like river, because it's I mean, even in town, everybody's on kind of the river or the, I think maybe the mouth of the river. So, it's like, it's a boating population. So, it's a corner store. But instead of driving up, you drive your boat up. So like bait and tackle and all that kind of stuff. I think it's really important to note that like Jumpin’ is a, like he's a colored man in a time period where they had the colored village and the white village.

18:22

Holly: And then Kya was still other from even that.

18:27

Harley: The reason why I bring it up is because there's a point in the book where Jumpin’ wants to do more to help her or to let's go to the authorities about this and things like that. And she's like, what would happen if, earlier in the book, one of your people was chased home by some boys who were throwing stones at him and like, almost beat him to death. But you couldn't go to the authorities. Because at the end of the day, it's white people versus black people. And we all know how that's going to end. And I'm the same, like, I might not be othered in the same way. I'm not the same kind of other, but I'm other in the same way. So, like, be real about this, and how this will play out because it doesn't matter what's true and what's not true. And it doesn't matter who's right and who's wrong. What matters is that we are automatically wrong because of who we are as people and there's no point in doing this. And he's very quick to accept that because he recognizes that in that time and place. It's true. Unfortunately, in a lot of places now it's still true.

19:21

Holly: So, Jumpin’ and his wife, Mabel, are the two that really helped Kya as much as they possibly can. So, they provide her with clothes, and she gets a bit of a head start in life.

19:38

Harley: I guess some income to survive.

19:41

Holly: So, she goes out and she starts, I want to say it’s mussels yeah? So, she goes out and she's harvesting mussels and takes them to Jumpin’s store. And he basically says if you're here before my other delivery people, bring them up.

19:58

Harley: I’ll pay for them.

20:00

Holly: I'll buy him a few. Yeah, so he's able to give her some cash for that.

20:05

Harley: I think too, they really recognise from a very early stage in the book, at least, because the characters in the movie are combined with a couple of other characters. So, it kind of loses some of the nuances. But in the book, they very clearly understand that she can only accept so much help. So, if they tried to take her in, or if they tried to do more than she was ready for, she would just disappear on them and not get any help at all, so they help her exactly as far as she's able. It's like the people who are like, we can't take this cat in, even though we need to adopt this cat, take it to the vet, deworm and do all that stuff. It will not let us do that. But we'll leave some food out for it.

20:38

Holly: We really, we definitely see that when Mabel brings a box of clothes for her. And she's like, Oh, no, I can't pay for this. And Mabel’s like, No, this is just old stuff from the church. Like it's gonna go in the bin if you don't take it. And she was like, Oh, well, I guess if it's gonna go in the bin, then I'll take it. It wasn't gonna go in the bin. And Mabel specifically went out and collected these items of clothing for her, including, like, a really pretty dress for her. But she needed to think that it's not charity.

21:04

Harley: And I think very slowly built up that relationship with them that was as close to parental as she could handle. Because obviously, both of them very clearly had a huge soft spot for her. And felt very protective of her, even though she's not a particularly likable character. I do think that's one of the other hard things that are like, in terms of going from book to movie is she's described as very, very beautiful, but she's very skittish and very standoffish, so she's attractive, especially to some of the boys growing up and all that kind of stuff. But her ability to interact with them is minimal, and they kind of have to be careful about it. And she doesn't necessarily understand the social nuances and things like that. And that's where we have. I feel like Tate comes in, because she has no contact with people except for Jumpin’ at that stage.

21:54

Holly: Well, so she'd had contact with Tate first. Her brother Jody, who was the last one to leave her of the family unit, Tate was his friend. Sorry, yes, dad was the last one to leave. So second last one to leave. And there was an incident where she had done something wrong and can't remember exactly what it was. And her father dearest was going to punish her. But this was in front of her brother and Tate and the other children. Tate got in between Kya and her dad, and he smashed Tate right across the face. And then we didn't see Tate for many years.

22:29

Harley: Yeah, so it's like this old friend that they kind of lost touch or that kind of thing. And I think it's really important that from that very early age, that he's in that position of her rescuer or her hero or, from the very start, because it informs how she sees him, not necessarily how he sees himself because I think that's a little bit more nuanced, but certainly how she sees him and why she's a little bit unwilling to, like she gets very upset with him when he breaks that character. Yeah, not that she's not in the right to be upset, you know, but…

22:59

Holly: So, Tate comes back into the picture when either dad is gone for good or has–

23:05

Harley: No, so he first appears when she steals her father's boat when he's gone. He gets drunk and disappears for long, long, like, sometimes days at a time and all that stuff, just leaving her on her own. And it's in one of these that she's like, I could take the boat out for a little bit and like, be free for a little piece of time. And she does and she gets lost, and he discovers her lost. And he's like, Do you need help getting back? And initially, she's like, No, and then she's like, Actually, yes, yeah. So, he leads her back. And then he's like, Okay, well, now that you're here, like, I'll just go. And this is one of the things that kind of informs their relationship is that Tate is good with animals in general. So, he's also a conservationist, but he comes from that, like, he goes to university and he is a part of normal society. He does things the normal way, but he still cares about the marsh and that conservation has that way with animals, including Kya.

23:53

Holly: And the fact that he does want to be part of, loosely using the word normal, but like traditional society, not part of the mash becomes a point of, an issue later.

24:04

Harley: Yeah, because he thinks she can just come and join him at university, not understanding how other she is. But then he also is part of the reason why she finds ways to touch the real world in safe ways for her.

24:15

Holly: Yes, so he recognizes that she's also very interested in learning about the creatures of the marsh.

24:22

Harley: And well, they bond over the creatures of the marsh. So, their first kind of, I don't even want to say flirtation because it's even kind of pre-flirtation, when they're just feeling each other out. They’re leaving presents for each other of like, bird feathers and shells, and little pieces of the marsh and she starts collecting, or we think she's already collecting these. And so, she turns her house basically it’s a little swamp shack. And she turns that into her first kind of scientific collection. And she draws a lot while she's doing it as well.

24:51

Holly: So, while they're leaving each other presents, he leaves her a note, but because she's grown up in the marsh and has been at school for exactly one day, she can't read, and he confronts her like at this point, they just leaving presents, they're not seeing each other. They're just leaving each other the presents. So, he waits by this little log. And then when she comes to leave her present, he confronts her. And she has to confess that she can't read. So, Tate becomes a teacher. So, this, I'd say, is probably mid to early-mid teenagers at this point. They're not children anymore.

25:26

Harley: No, but they'd still like, they're in that thing, where it's like, we're so grown up, but then every adult is looking at them being like, Oh, my God, you're still a child.

25:34

Holly: Yeah. So, Tate manages to teach her how to read, and then starts bringing her more and more biology books.

25:43

Harley: Yeah, so she's really intelligent. She's just not traditionally educated.

25:47

Holly: Yeah, Tate then does get into university and leaves her in the marsh, planning to come back. And you know, they were gonna get a place for themselves and start their lives and do all this. But he was going to finish university first. He comes back, he's on his boat, he sees her on the beach and decides that she is too other to introduce into his world. And so, he essentially abandons her at this point.

26:16

Harley: Yeah, so like the mature young man at university, that he is he avoids dealing with the confrontation and just disappears, leaving her to wait and wait and wait and finally realize that she has been abandoned yet again. Because the right way to deal with conflict is to trigger someone's abandonment.

26:35

Holly: And then in walks, Chase. Destruction, personified.

26:43

Harley: She’s wounded and wanting to feel cared for. So, she's all ready to, she's still a virgin at this stage. She's all ready to commit herself fully to Tate, all that kind of stuff. And then he abandons her and she's like, yet another person that I loved that just walks away and feels fine to just leave me here. And go on with their lives and never kind of come back and whatever. Chase walks in.

27:07

Holly: Yeah, so Chase, if we didn't mention before, is the murder victim.

27:12

Harley: So at this stage when they're still teenagers. He's the star football player of the school and if ever a boy had white wall tires? It would be him. If you've listened to our double-feature episode, he's the slick boy you run from.

27:25

Holly: He is this boy you run from. So, he's managing to live essentially this double life, where he has the proper girlfriend with the now, she had a pearl necklace. Pearl was her name. I'm pretty sure. I remember reading that and being like, why like that is the only real way that she's described.

27:48

Harley: I feel like it's one of those like, potentially, was a just like, I'll just call her Pearl for now. Because like mostly through Kya, Kya calls her Pearl because the pearl necklace. And it's just like, yeah, too lazy to change it. I didn't go back and thought about it. Oh, well, we're here now. So Pearl is not actually important to the story. Except that she is the proper girl.

28:09

Holly: She's the girl that Chases meant to end up with.

28:12

Harley: Introduced to his parents and get married to.

28:16

Holly: She's the one with the rock on her finger.

28:17

Harley: But because Kya is so separate from townsfolk, she is not aware of this.

28:23

Holly: No, she has no clue. And she's falling, I guess for Chase.

28:29

Harley: Well, a version of him that he's presenting. So, it's the like, I have a shiny boat, and I've got lots of resources, and I'll take you for picnics, and we'll do all this nice stuff. And he pushes her boundaries. So, he literally pushes her boundaries and like rapes her at one point.

28:45

Holly: But does he actually rape her? Or did she?

28:48

Harley: Oh, no. Not quite.

28:49

Holly: That's right. I think she gets away.

28:51

Harley: But he also I mean, when they do sleep together, I mean, she, like most young girls of the time, I think, and probably still these days, has this fantasy version of what the first time is going to be like, and he pushes her to come out of town with him and stay in a motel. And so, she loses her virginity in a seedy motel to a guy that has basically taken her out of her comfort zone. So, she's isolated.

29:15

Holly: Look at all these lovely things I've done for you. I've earned it, right? That kind of vibe.

29:20

Harley: So theoretically, she consents to that one, but arguably, in a questionable manner. But I mean, she does at the time think that she is in love with him. And so maybe it's worth it in the long run, and it'll make it real and then there'll be real partners. And I think almost immediately after that, she goes into town ready to say hello to him. And he's like, here's my new wife.

29:40

Holly: Yeah, yeah. So not long after that, there is an altercation on the beach where he does attempt to rape her. She fights him off, and she does fight him off and gets away. She does punch him in the face, she hits him with something, he gets hit, takes us a smack in the face. And it's more the anger and aggression that comes from that that is the issue.

30:09

Harley: So, she, I think doesn't actually sleep in her house that night. So, she like, hides in the woods all night. And she realizes that, because she's so isolated, she will never be safe from him. Because at any point of the day or night, he could come out there and do whatever he wanted to her. And if she doesn't manage to fight him off next time, there's nothing to stop him from assaulting her raping her killing her, any of that stuff. So, it's like, while he's alive. I'm not safe.

30:36

Holly: And he does take this aggression out on the house when he doesn't find her there. He trashes it. And that's her life's work.

30:43

Harley: So, then we go from the future into the past to this point where he's murdered. Oh, sorry, the, when they find him, their first thing is they’re like, Well it has to be Kya. She gets arrested for it, and all that kind of stuff. But she's out of town when it happens. So, she's gone to meet with her publisher. Because in tandem with all of this happening, Tate has pushed her to contact a publisher. And he's, I think he's reached out to her while he's at University. He's like, sent her a letter or something, as he's like, one way of reaching out to say sorry, or whatever. And she's like, I still don't forgive you. But actually, that's not a bad idea. And she does send stuff off to a publisher throughout this time period. So, she's managed to publish at least one work, maybe two. And because she's kind of getting more mature and more able to kind of deal with the world and all that kind of stuff, she goes into the bigger town. So, she goes out of town to meet with her publisher. And that's when he dies.

31:39

Holly: So, she'd been invited to meet this publisher, one town over also. And she had pushed it back. Because he'd also smacked her in the face. So, she had that black eye. And she pushed it back until that was healed enough that she could cover it and go and visit this publisher. Now, the publisher. She would have to get a bus there. The bus only ran very infrequently.

32:03

Harley: Well, essentially, she's got an alibi. She's out of town. And I think it's like one of the things that I really like about this thing is that like, there is that element of who done it, like did she do it? Did she not? Is there a timeframe there for her to do it? But it's actually less about that and more about that thing of other. It seems like on the surface, there's no way she could have done it. Like when you look at the timeline, stuff, there's no way she could have done it. And then it becomes a thing of the like, the town's bias. So, do you believe she did it simply because she's a wild animal? And she's this other thing, or whatever? Or do you believe her story because clearly, nothing adds up?

32:42

Holly: Yeah, so it was all very circumstantial evidence. Like they watched her from like the in-town store window, getting on this bus. And then someone saw someone getting off the bus who maybe could have been her in a wig dressed like an old person or something.

33:00

Harley: And, there was like an old man who got off the bus and an old woman got on the bus.

33:04

Holly: And if she'd have to get this certain time bus back to be back in time.

33:08

Harley: And if so much as a minute was off, everything's thrown off.

33:12

Holly: She would have had to run full pelt through the marsh to get there. And like, there was no evidence. So, everything was wiped down. There were no fingerprints there.

33:22

Harley: But they also tried to say there are no footprints because obviously, it's proof that something was wiped down. But the argument on the other side was the clear signs that the river had risen and then dropped again. So naturally, that's going to wash away evidence. So, it's all well and good that you say she's wiped away her footprints, but there are no footprints there because of the river, not because somebody's wiped it away. It doesn't mean that. So, the other thing is, was he murdered? Because he could have very easily–so he's fallen from the top of like a watchtower, basically. So, he could have slipped and fallen, he could have been pushed or that kind of stuff. So, this is a big thing is one who did it. And two, did someone do it?

33:59

Holly: Yeah. So the only piece of evidence that they had was this is red fibers that they found on Chase’s body. Now we know that Tate had a red beanie that he wore all the time. So, for a good portion of the book, it's like Oh, my God did Tate do it?

34:16

Harley: And it’s kind of there's a period of time in the book too where I was like, it makes a lot of sense that like Jumpin’ and Tate would have banded together to help her because they saw that she got beaten around by him as well. And were protective of her throughout it and all that kind of stuff. But would have had to like that would have had to be an absolute vow of secrecy because neither one of them would have, especially Jumpin’, would not have survived that accusation. So there's a whole layer of like, was it murder and if it was murder, who did it and I will admit it I thought for most of the book that it was Jumpin’ and Tate.

34:45

Holly: Same, same. So, the only other little piece of sort of circumstantial evidence that appears is that Chase every day wore a shell around his neck on a leather cord that Kya had given him now when he found his body. This shell was gone, this necklace was gone. And it wasn't found, no one found it.

35:07

Harley: And that was more important because one of the things that they discovered with the red fibers is that they could have gotten on him at multiple stages. So, there's no proof that that came from somebody murdering him.

35:15

Holly: Yep. But the only significance of this necklace was that it came from Kya. And she would be the only one that would take it.

35:23

Harley: Or if somebody did take it, it would be connected to her.

35:27

Holly: So, Chase’s mother was the one that put that connection together about the necklace, and Kya. So obviously his affair with the marsh girl was public knowledge. Everyone seemed to know that he was fooling around with this marsh girl.

35:41

Harley: Yeah, so it seemed like a thing in town where it was like, Hey, you know, boys will be boys.

35:45

Holly: Yeah. And nobody seemed to give a shit. I wonder what Pearl thought about it, though.

35:50

Harley: Yeah. So, there's those kinds of very complicated layers and that othering. And so I think I mentioned at the start earlier on, the part of the reason why Kya gets ultimately acquitted for the murder is because her lawyer does go, At what point are you making it like this so much proof that this could not have been her beyond a reasonable doubt, which is, of course, you need to find somebody guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, there is so much reasonable doubt here, that for you to find her guilty, you have to recognize that you are othering her again. So, at the end of the day, how weird she is, and how off-putting she is our responsibility as a town for not taking care of one of our own and for othering her instead? And how much do we have to accept that off-puttingness or that weirdness or that otherness is our fault, and we can't once again, punish her for something that is not her fault? And that really resonates with people. And so, she's found not guilty and a lot of characters, like Tate's father comes around and goes, like, I've always known that you've had this relationship with her, but I don't know that I fully recognized what it was. And I support you guys.

36:58

Holly: And so once she's kind of accepted, I guess she's found not guilty. And she's kind of accepted by society, but she's Fuck this shit, and goes back.

37:07

Harley: But I think changes her approach, like in terms of she renovates the, so she decides that she belongs in her marsh. But she renovates her house, and she gets electricity, and she makes it more comfortable and all this kind of stuff. And so Jodie comes back into the picture. And she builds a relationship with him. So, there is healing that takes place. She doesn't necessarily leave the marsh. But, I think I said something about like, not everything has to be a hero's journey at the start of this, but it’s kind of is that hero's journey of, they return to the place where they start, but they're not the same person who started.

37:40

Holly: Yeah, we can also thank Tate for a big portion of this, because he pushes her to publish these books. And then once she does, she gets her payment for them. She is able to go down to the, I don't know, offices of the whatever, and ask them Who owns this land? And like, is it in my family? Can I have it? Can I renovate this place? Or are you going to take it off me? Because they are trying to buy up land around to develop it.

38:09

Harley: So it’s a thing of her, like she gets accepted to a point by the town. But also, learns to work within the constructs of the rules of society to a certain degree. So rather than just disappearing into this marsh, and all that kind of stuff, she finds out she's going to lose it to developers, and actually goes into town and goes, Do I have any legal rights to prevent this? And they're like, Well, there are back taxes owed, but if you pay there's enough proof here that it belongs in your family that goes nuts. And she has the money.

38:36

Holly: So, she does. So, she's kind of like, sort of semi-joined society, hasn't necessarily joined it but he's learned to work with it. After she's found not guilty, her and Tate rekindle their relationship, and they happily live in the marsh exploring and painting and collecting samples and just having a happy little uhhh. Having an aneurysm.

39:04

Harley: It’s real fun watching her struggle guys. They live happily ever after.

39:09

Holly: That's the one I wanted. They live happily ever after until they are old and crusty.

39:15

Harley: And then she does eventually pass away.

39:18

Holly: So, she passes away and then Tate makes a discovery.

39:22

Harley: Yeah, so they're clearing out the house and I think they move like a refrigerator that's like one of those big old ’50s fridges that do not move or something like that. Clearly, this thing has not moved forever.

39:33

Holly: I mean in the movie, I'm pretty sure it is on the bookshelf, but yeah, sorry. Carry on.

39:38

Harley: In the book it like thoroughly hidden he finds a like, I guess a cavity in the floor or whatever. And that’s been missed in all the searches and all that kind of stuff. And he finds the necklace that Chase wore.

39:48

Holly: So, after all this, she fucking done it. She done it. I wasn't expecting it.

39:56

Harley: I feel it kind of took away from not having the answer. I feel like we didn't need to know. I think that was a more powerful ending.

40:04

Holly: I think it would have been a more powerful ending. Yeah, if we just straight up didn't know

40:09

Harley: Because the reality is who done it, or was it an accident or things like that didn't matter? Because it was not a story about the truth.

40:15

Holly: No, it was a story about the other.

40:17

Harley: And how people perceive reality, I guess, how they perceive other people and how they perceive themselves and the rules of society and whether or not you fit them and all that kind of stuff.

40:28

Holly: And I think it made Kya seem quite manipulative.

40:33

Harley: And I get that it was meant as like she always understood more than people gave her credit for. But I do feel like it took away from like, we already got that. Yeah, we already got that memo. So yeah, I'm not really sure why we needed that ending. In fact, I don't think we did need that ending.

40:50

Holly: Yeah, I would have been very happy just being like, was it Jumpin’ and Tate? Did Chase just off himself? Because that also was a possibility.

40:57

Harley: Yeah. Or did he genuinely just slip? Like sometimes accidents happen and they are convenient accidents for other people. And it's like, I mean, that's such a real, there's such a level of like, it's too poetic for me to say it felt like a real story. And it's too ... There's a little bit of that kind of fairytale quality to it. But there was a sort of grittiness to it that felt real and leaving that unfinished would have been a really lovely kind of addition to that realness, that grittiness or that reality of it. I have to say, I really enjoyed the book. I think it was beautifully, poetically done. I wasn't sure I was going to enjoy the book. I will say when I first started reading it, I was like, Oh, this feels like it's gonna be one of those pretentious, people read it to feel like, like, I'm so literary.

41:45

Holly: But then it wasn’t. It was less pretentious. It was a more legitimate love of wild.

41:51

Harley: Yeah. And that's it. It's like at the start with no context. I was like, Oh, fuck me. What have I signed up for?

41:55

Holly: Because the language is very pretentious. But it's only in relation to descriptions of the marsh. And it very quickly, it just works. It works very well. The descriptions are just so eloquent and beautiful.

42:07

Harley: Yeah, so it very much has that kind of poetic language of literature. But I don't think leans too hard into the language over plot. The plot is very clearly well-developed. I think she's a very good writer. Well, obviously, like all writing, there are things that you can nitpick and stuff. I mean, the ending is a great example. I don't like it. I would have removed it. But I don't think that that takes away from her skill and ability.

42:29

Holly: Yeah.

42:30

Harley: Who’s your favorite character?

42:31

Holly: Probably Mabel. Yeah, probably Mabel.

42:36

Harley: You were very upset with the diminishing of her in the movie.

42:40

Holly: They really joined a few different characters together to create Mabel in the movie, which was a bit disappointing. I think they also made her more palatable for the screen because in the book, she's a very overweight woman. And she's just very much the matriarchy of this family. Like she is the head of this.

42:59

Harley: I will say I think that they did a brilliant job. Like the actors who played Jumpin’ and Mabel, but neither of them visually…

43:06

Holly: they weren't true to the story.

43:10

Harley: And I don't just mean visually, in terms of the like, tall, and skinny, short and fat or whatever. I also mean, kind of, I don't know, there's like a visual element of how you portray yourself as a person and the kind of character you are and all that kind of thing. I don't know, I just there was something that was just, I guess it's the same thing with like, I didn't like the visuals of Kya, because that way that she would melt into the forest is very much, or melt into the swamp is very much her character, even though it's a visual thing if that makes sense. And it's a little bit harder to put my finger on with like, I think a great example is the fact that I think Mabel is that stereotype of that woman who is generous in a way that kind of feels physical with the like. There are some people who would just overweight and it's just because they're overweight. And there are some people that are overweight, in way that reads as gluttonous whether or not that's true or fair, or any of that kind of stuff is a different conversation. But there are also people where it is like that never trust a skinny cook. Very generous in this kind of way that is, I'm physically generous and then I'm emotionally generous. And then, I'm like, she's this size because she's so full of love. And that's generosity. Yeah, that even if they didn't necessarily want to go for somebody who was obese overweight, I don't know that they necessarily hit that visual goal of somebody who is so generous that they're literally generous with their weight as much as they are generous with their person. And that was the feeling that I got from Mabel in the book. And I don't know if that sounds completely insane.

44:46

Holly: No, I understand what you're saying. I think they've taken some of the characters and they've just polished them a bit too much.

44:52

Harley: Yeah, they kind of polished the character out of them.

44:55

Holly: Yeah. I already felt that. Some of the characters in the book were a little lacking in development. And the movie kind of like further eroded some of that. Yeah, I definitely think, usually the book is better than any movie adaptation. But in this instance, it's a lot better. Like, I wouldn't even bother seeing the movie, I would just read the book.

45:18

Harley: I feel like it's one of those. It'd be really interesting to talk to somebody who saw the movie and then read the book. Because I feel like if you hadn't read the book, then the movie really would hit the spot. But having read the book was like, yeah, you've missed the target altogether. It was interesting. Some of the like, visual stuff that I was like, felt different in my head. Like it felt much more open in the movie than it did in the marsh.

45:44

Holly: Yeah, I read it the other way around. I thought the marsh would be a bit more closed.

45:52

Harley: No, this is what I'm saying is like the marsh seems like this big open space. And it makes sense. Like, if you think about it, that's just me making shit up in my head. It's got nothing to do with how it was written. It's got nothing to do with how it was shot. That's not an incorrect thing. It was just really interesting that it was like there was this kind of darker looming quality in my head. And the reality of the marsh where they shot it is that it was big, wide-open space. If you reread the book, you're like, Yeah, no, that's not incorrect. It just isn't how I imagined it.

46:20

Holly: That's because we haven't grown up in a country that has like these marsh.

46:24

Harley: You say bushland, I got you. You say small country town with an avenue of honor. I'm like, which one? I know the exact town.

46:31

Holly: Yes, I kind of envisioned the marshland as being bushland but on water. 

46:36

Harley: I think that's actually probably not an inaccurate way of I guess I kind of saw Florida, so I think actually said swamp earlier, but like, almost like Florida swamp the way you see it in movies. But it's not like that. And I think I got that because it's kind of that like in my head that American version of our river. And I spent a lot of time, more time than you apparently, camping, but a lot like time on rivers and time in the bush and all that kind of stuff that that to me is a real like natural default. So, it's not surprising that I went there, given that yeah, like in my head. I said, it's that Florida swamp, as shown on TV and movies. Because I can't say I've spent any time in a Florida swamp.

47:18

Holly: No. So we can probably just chalk this one up to being like ignorant Aussies. And that's fine. That's fair. We don’t have that life experience.

47:25

Harley: But I think we also don't necessarily have, I mean, we do have marshes and things like that, but we don't necessarily have, I don't know because I don't even want to say that because I mean I've seen like that coastal kind of where the mouth of a river is and you know, that kind of wide open swamp land and all that kind of thing, but not swampland, a marshland. Words matter. Yeah, I guess obviously, given how I’m misspeaking, conflate marsh and swamp in my head. And I think I might have gone swamp instead of marsh. And so that was a bit of an eye-opening thing for me watching the movie was like, Oh, hang on, I visualized this wrong. And again, not in it was described the wrong kind of way just to like, okay, where my brain defaulted was not accurate.

48:07

Holly: I'm gonna ask another really stupid question. Maybe not as stupid as is a crawdad a bird?

48:11

Harley: I didn't know the answer.

48:12

Holly: I think you did, though.

48:15

Harley: You know, I just didn't know that I knew the answer.

48:17

Holly: What's the difference between swamp land and marshland to Google? Wow, you're so smart.

48:27

Harley: The difference between the two is that swamps usually have deeper standing water and are wet for longer periods of the year, according to national park service, marshes have rich, waterlogged soils that support plant life. Okay, so the presence of water is the main difference between marshes and swamps the kind of plant life present in the areas of the primary difference between them. Swamps are predominantly forested. While marshes have few if any trees but are home to grasses and herbaceous plants, including annuals, perennials, and biennials. Swamps are often classified by the type of tree growing there, I don't care about that.  Marshes have rich, waterlogged soils that support plant life. Plants that grow marshes bind to the muddy soil, which slows the flow of the water. There are three kinds of marshes: tidal freshwater, tidal saltwater, and inland freshwater. So, it seems like swamps are more like trees and stuff. I mean, they do describe both, so maybe that's the thing that threw me because I don't necessarily if you asked me to describe marsh, I'd kind of be like, I don't know, soggy soil. Am I wrong? Not according to reconnectwithnature.org But yeah, I guess that kind of like wet bushland just reads to me is swamped. And the way that she describes the nature there is like obviously, it's wet bush because it's like it's wet enough to have water and boats and like beaches and things like that. But it's like she talks about her disappearing into the trees and so there's bush in that sense. So, I think that's where my head just kind of conflated a couple of things based on my experience because my experience is only being Australian.

49:59

Holly: Yeah. So, maybe she focused too much on the smaller details of the tiny things. And we didn't get a full big picture. Or maybe we're just ignorant Australians or maybe it's a combination of both.

50:10

Harley: Yeah, but I think it's, I mean, also none of the above where it's just like, sometimes you do - and I find this sometimes with like books and stories and things like that is - sometimes you just lock on to something being a certain way, for no particular reason. And convincing you that it's otherwise it's very hard, even when there's like hard evidence in the book, but you are wrong. You’re like, I'm sorry, I choose not to process that.

50:33

Holly: Yeah. It's like when they cost a certain actor, and you're like, Nope, wrong. Can't watch this.

50:40

Harley: Even like, they described someone down the track where they go all like, actually they're blonde, and you're like, nope, 0% imagining that, nope.

50:48

Holly: I need a whole scene where they have a breakdown, and they dye their hair blonde in the middle of the night while they're crying. And then I'll accept they’re a blonde.

50:55

Harley: And I'm still going to imagine them dark and brooding.

50:58

Holly: So, who was your favorite character?

51:00

Harley: I think Tate. I do think like Jumpin’ and Mabel, I loved their relationship with Kya. But I think just as a standalone character, I think Tate because I think that he really showed kind of he was very human and flawed in that kind of way. But he was incredibly kind. He was very kind. And I don't think that we often see kind of those empathetic kind men in that kind of way, where it was just that innate, understanding that Kya was inherently a wild animal and needed to be treated as such. But I did like that he wasn't then just described as like, the perfectest person to ever be perfect, that gets irritating too so having him be flawed and having him fuck up and having him be part of the problem and like, essentially pour salt on her wounds at one point in the book, and then having to redeem himself from that and actually makes the effort to redeem himself.

51:52

Holly: I do like his redemption arc. I did like that.

51:54

Harley: I think was really, really powerful. And I mean, it did add to the thing of like, did he kill Chase to help protect her in part because he was her protector, but also in part to redeem himself for her? So, I think he was my favorite.

52:08

Holly: Any other thoughts?

52:10

Harley: No, I think I think we've covered it. I think this is a hard one to recommend to people because I would call it almost like literature lite.

52:18

Holly: I would agree it is literature-lite.

52:20

Harley: So, if you want just like a trashy read, it's not necessarily the go-to. Like it's not on par with something like Colleen Hoover's level of airport fiction, but it's like airport literature. So, it's like, I want literature, but I'm not really ready to be reading that intense literature. But I want that poetic language. And I want that beautiful story and that deeper meaning throughout the book. She does nail all of those things in a way that is more accessible than like, true, true, true literature but still kind of is on the edge of that. And hopefully, we are not helping finance a murderer, an accomplice. Yeah, okay, well, yeah, hopefully, we're not supporting somebody who is like, Yeah, my son-in-law shot someone but he was a poacher. So, like, kind of deserved it. Not saying that I agree with poaching because I definitely don’t, but I also don't agree with murder, so everyone's wrong.

53:17

Holly: Let's just not kill anybody. Animal or human. Just a thought.

53:22

Harley: Yeah. Anyway, I questioned the author's morality, but her ability to tell the story is pretty damn fine.

53:30

Holly: So, I guess, let us know if you guys thought it was very obvious that Kya was the murderer. So, if you think Kya being the murderer is a confession on Delia Owens’ part or any other wild thoughts?

53:48

Harley: And let us know if you've read Where the Crawdads Sing, or you've seen Where the Crawdads Sing. Let us know what you think. If you saw the movie and then read the book, let us know what you think especially in the meantime, we will love you and leave you for this week. And we will see you next week.

54:02

Holly: Yes, as per usual, all the links are all the things in the... I'm not good at outros.

54:07

Harley: I'm making her leave that in. As always, we will have links to everything we discussed in our show notes. You can also find all the things on bimbobookclub.com. We are on basically all the social media platforms you can find us either in our links or by looking up Bimbo Book Club basically everywhere.

54:29

Holly: Basically everywhere.

54:30

Harley: Bimbos out.

TJR Double Feature P2 Transcript

© Bimbo Media

00:03

Holly: This is Bimbo Book Club with Holly.

00:12

Harley: And Harley.

00:14

Holly: Hello, and welcome back to part two of our double feature. This week, we're still talking about Malibu Rising and The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo, by Taylor Jenkins Reid.

00:24

Harley: There's a bit of a conversational jump from last week because when we were recording, our audio died, but we're just going to jump straight back in from where we hit record again.

00:32

Holly: So, if you haven't listened to part one, we recommend you start there. Otherwise, let's do this.

00:40

Harley: Okay, I can’t remember what we were talking about. I think gay marriage.

00:43

Holly: And how much we liked Harry.

00:45

Harley: Yeah. Well, I just think that sometimes when you enter into a relationship that is honest and genuine, even if it's not sexual… To be fair, I also actually kind of think that marriage is a contract, it's a business deal. So even if you get married because of love, the love and the marriage are separate things. And I think that one of the reasons why that relationship is so healthy and why I think that I'd be really good in a lavender marriage and all that kind of stuff is because I am very kind of frank in that way. And very blunt in that way, where it's like one, I don't care if you're sleeping with other men, they’re clearly given you something that I can’t—even with a strap on, fucking a woman is different from fucking a man. And I appreciate that. But I think that yeah, like the marriage is that business arrangement part of it. And if you look at the way that Evelyn and Harry built their family, they were very practical about all of those conversations. And they never expected anything that the other one couldn't give because they were so practical. And they were so frank about it. And they had those conversations instead of just falling into default positions.

01:55

Holly: Yeah. And I think this is a recurring sort of theme, we only really see two types of relationships in these novels. The first one is like this, where they're gone into it really, practically, they've had a great conversation about how it's going to work. I mean, we even see it with Nina’s best friend, when her older partner proposes to her something like that. She says, Okay, but I'm not going to be faithful. But sure, I will be by your side every day. But I'm not going to be faithful all the time, I don't expect that of you either. And that was perfectly fine. Whereas the other kind of relationship that we see is where one person is completely naive. And the other person is just fucking everything else under the sun.

02:43

Harley: Actually, I think that there is the other one that we've seen in, what's his name? The brother that's sleeping with his brother's ex?

02:50

Holly: Hudson.

02:52

Harley: In their relationship, you know, it is that kind of choosing to be honest, and choosing to do that. So, and obviously, for Hudson’s storyline, he is the kid that essentially was abandoned by both of his parents, but so he is Mick’s son to somebody else and gets dumped on their doorstep. And basically, their mum goes, It's not your fault that this has happened. And you deserve to be raised with your siblings, and you deserve to be loved. So, she kind of takes him in as her own. And unfortunately, Mick treats him like one of his own, which means that when one gets abandoned, they all do. But he has that kind of choice of going, Do I leave this woman? She said, I'm pregnant, and I'm not getting rid of it.

03:39

Holly: Now she's picked a baby name. If it's a boy, it'll be one name, if it's a girl it will be that name, but either way, whether it's with this person or it's not with Hudson, she will be raising this child.

03:50

Harley: So, he knows that he's essentially making that same choice: Do I choose to be there no matter the consequences in my own life, or do I choose the road that's easier for me? Because his brother, Jay doesn't know that they have been seeing each other. And he is like, at the start of the book, he is trying to figure out a way to tell him and long story short, he finds out in not the right way, and loses his shit about it. But they do kind of come to that point where because Hudson's essentially like, I completely understand how you feel. And I'm not going to try and defend myself because I was in the wrong, but she's pregnant and I'm not going to abandon her.

04:29

Holly: I think it's also deeper than that, because Hudson says, I love her. I am in love with her. Whereas Jay was like, I just had fun with her. I didn't ever actually love her. And I think it's when he realizes that his brother is truly in love with this woman, that he is happy to deal with whatever consequences that his brother throws at him, whether it's a broken nose, which happens, or it's other. He's prepared to deal with that, and he makes a decision to not follow in his father's footsteps and walk away. He's going to do the right thing for her and for the baby. And also, for him.

05:05

Harley: Well, I just because I know he talks at one stage about how that adds an extra layer, because it's not just about him going, I can deny my own love and walk away from this woman that I love to make my brother happy or to fix the family or to do that kind of stuff. Because the decision isn't that simple. There is a child involved. So aside from the fact that I really genuinely love this woman. I don't want to turn out like my dad, where he grows up being like, Oh, yeah, that asshole dad, who was never here. Yeah, like fucked over my mom, and then just disappeared and didn't face any of the consequences. I don't want to be that person. I don't want to be that person for her because I do love her. But more importantly, I don't want to be that person for my kid.

05:48

Holly: I feel like this relationship still falls under that first sort of category, yes, it was the brother's girlfriend at the time when they started seeing each other. But they have gone into it fully knowing what's going to happen, that they have to come clean, that it's going to be messy, and that someone's going to get hurt emotionally and physically.

06:08

Harley: Yeah, I think that differs just in that most relationships people either go in eyes open, or they go in eyes shut. And I feel like that's one of the only relationships where they go in eyes shut, but hold each other's hand through the process of opening their eyes and handling their shit.

06:22

Holly: I would agree. And then almost it's like, Jay is the naive one in this situation.

06:30

Harley: And I think that we see Jay in the book, but also in how he talks about her when her kind of comes to terms with their relationship. He is somebody who unintentionally is like his father in that in using women to fill a void in himself. So, it's that like, because I mean, the girl that he's in love with and hooking up with in the book, he's actually in love with this idea that he's created for her being someone who doesn't care about him as the superstar surfer.

06:56

Holly: And I think this also comes back to what we're talking about earlier in that Nina pursued fame for the money, whereas Evelyn pursued fame for the fame. And Jay is the same. He's pursued surfing, for the covers and for that sort of thing. And what really kicked him into gear was the fact that his sister got paid for surfing. Yes, it was surf modeling, and not actually surfing. But she got paid for surfing before he did. And that's what really kicked him into gear to become this like, pro surfer.

07:29

Harley: Yeah. And everybody was suddenly talking about superstar Nina Riva, daughter of Mick Riva.

07:33

Holly: Exactly. He was like, What about me? Whereas Hudson also appears in just as many magazines because he's the one that's taking the photo. So, his name is appearing just as many times, but he's not doing it for the fame. Even on the street, nobody would know who he is. And he likes it that way.

07:53

Harley: I think then you also have also got the repeating motif of—what's the younger sister named? Kit?

07:59

Holly: Kathryn, Kit.

08:02

Harley: Realizing that she's gay. And it's interesting that these things are kind of touched on throughout different generations, because obviously, the reality of being gay in not just in Hollywood, but in general, in kind of The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo kind of original time period, like they literally talk about Stonewall happening, while they're in their little four-way lavender marriage.

08:23

Holly: Yeah, which little side note, I really appreciated the way that Celia wanted to go down and be a part of it. But they convince her not to, because had she gone down, had they gone down, it would no longer be about the message, it would be about them showing up. And I think that's also very relevant to what's happening now with Roe vs. Wade and all the issues that we're having, where certain celebrities are down, and they're doing it you can see for the clout, they're not doing it for the passion, because it's not something that has been on their radar for a long period of time. It's only just now.

08:59

Harley: Just purely from a technical standpoint, I think it's really brilliant that it's Celia's husband that actually really articulates that well, because he's not given a lot of character in the book otherwise, because of course, it's Evelyn’s story. And he's not really relevant to her. He's the man that her husband is in love with. And the man that’s acting as a beard for the woman that she's in love with. So, they're friends, but they're really kind of drawn together by circumstance. And he's not hugely relevant to her personal story. So, it's nice kind of giving him that little bit of like, insightful character development, where you get the idea that he's a really nice man who's really considered without kind of being a bit ham-handed about it or a bit heavy about it. And it's also really relevant to the group as a whole. And I think it's really like one of the things that I really love is that they all are convincing her not to participate. But she was always passionate about that stuff. And so, it's that thing it's like sometimes, even when you really do care about the cause, and Even when you really do, like you have been invested for a long time, the reality is that the most obvious way to help is not always helpful. And looking at how to be helpful often comes from looking at other people's perspectives. I mean, even when you look at so often people donate on a really basic level. Often people donate for homelessness stuff, just pads, pads, pads and it's often more comfortable, especially if you have limited access to showers to have tampons. And so often homeless women prefer to have access to tampons, than pads. But that's not something that's often communicated. Because the people out there buying all this stuff and genuinely doing it out of a desire to be helpful. It's not like it's a bad thing. But they're not necessarily doing the thing that's in the absolute best interest because they're not, it's coming from their desire to be helpful more than that need for help being communicated.

10:55

Holly: We see that with disaster cleanup and stuff as well. The number of people that come down that just need to be managed and are not actually helpful.

11:03

Harley: Or the fact that soup kitchens turn people away on Christmas Day, but the rest of the year can barely get staff.

11:08

Holly: Exactly. So, what they touched on in a book, instead of going down to show face, they decided to donate what they could where they could, which was for them a lot as they are large, wealthy celebrities, which I think was very relevant, if you use your money to make a statement as much as you can, even if we are even, it's quite a statement.

11:33

Harley: Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, sorry. Anyway, for where I started, we have gone off track.

11:38

Holly: Tangent number 742. Back to our regularly scheduled programming.

11:45

Harley: But I think it's really interesting the way that it's handled throughout these different time periods where, in the ’50s, and ’60s, it simply wasn't spoken about, one simply wasn't gay, and especially for gay men, it was still illegal. So, one certainly didn't speak about it unless you wanted to go to jail, which was a very real threat

. And that was assuming that you went through the legal system and didn't just meet a local lynch mob.

12:13

Holly: Or they were taken out by AIDS.

12:16

Harley: But I mean, just in terms of the way social pressures and things like that, it was a life and death situation. And in some places, it still is, I don't want to dismiss that I'm very much talking about kind of that Western world like America, Australia kind of thing, not so much all of the other places in the world, because that's a conversation that could take lifetimes. But then in the ’80s, it's still that thing of the like, I would argue that that's kind of the time period where you were either a dyke or a porn star. And there's no in between. You can't just be like a normal person who happens to be gay, or a normal person who happens to be bisexual. You're either a raging fucking dyke, or you're a porn star. That's it. And if you don't fit into either of those categories, and I'd argue that that's where Kit, it's where she's like, well, I'm not that specifically like marching on the streets, steel capped boots, kind of lesbian. But I'm also not out here just trying to turn boys on and I'm not really gay. I'm like, this is a genuine feeling. That's for me. It's not about men's sexual entertainment. But it's also not this like, like that steel-capped boots dyke thing. She still kind of feels like I don't know how to address this. I don't know how to bring this up. I can't say that. Because, yeah, it's still as much as there's been all this progress since Evelyn's time. It's not that much progress in the grand scheme of things. It's just not illegal.

13:39

Holly: Yeah. And she didn't have any real role models. She had a supermodel sister, and a couple of brothers. And essentially no parental figures, aside from that sister, to help guide her through this. She was definitely a late bloomer. We realize now why, as was her friend.

14:01

Harley: Rebecca? I can't remember her name to correct it.

14:05

Holly: Anyway, whoever she was, as was her friend, who kind of went loose the night of the party and bragged about kissing five boys. Scandalous. And so, there's a real juxtaposition between one stepping into her like sexual power, and one kind of realizing that she didn't want that kind of sexual attention from boys at least.

14:31

Harley: I think too, it's still relevant today in terms of straight being the default position where you have to come out like why is that a thing? So, even in today's day and age actually be like, Heads up folks, I maybe don't like the opposite sex, instead of it just being like, Do you have a partner? Or Do you have a boyfriend? Like, No, I have a girlfriend.

14:59

Holly: Side tangent, another one, that Sims have recently allowed you to select the sexuality of your Sim. So now everyone is going, Yay, we can have gay Sims, but didn’t they never really have a sexual preference? Previously, you could just make him sleep with whoever you wanted. So, it's almost as if Sims have kind of like begrudgingly made straight Sims.

15:27

Harley: I also think that that, again comes to that, we all have to make a decision and we have to tick a box like, why can't you have your Sim just have a great relationship with another woman and then be like, You know what, babe? It's not working out for us.

15:40

Holly: Right? It's a bunch of pixels.

15:43

Harley: But also, that's how humanity works. It's not like there's some god out there. Like, even if we are in a simulation, it's not like there's some guys out there that I think I mean, if anything, there's a sliding scale, not a box that you check when they're like, How straight do I want to make it? Not that straight.

15:57

Holly: I'm pretty straight. But I definitely like boobs. Or, you know, there's so many…

16:02

Harley: Like if it turns out, we are Sims and we are in a simulation, we definitely are getting a sliding scale thing. And they're definitely just walking around with that like someone's hitting randomize.

16:15

Holly: Yeah, it's almost like prior to millennials, it was like, capped. There were only a few different spots on the scale we can put you.

16:25

Harley: But I do think that that comes back to people's search for which kind of comes back to everyone who go and her thing about not being called lesbian or straight. But that need to label everybody. Like, what category do you fit into? Even people's thing of the like, I find quite often people like is that a guy or girl is like doesn't matter. It absolutely doesn't matter. And if you can't immediately identify what category to put someone in, does it matter? I mean, by no means if someone says I prefer to be addressed this way, address them that way. But like, the fact that you can't put them in a box, you can't take a box for that random person walking down the street matters not at all. And the thing is, it's not a box. And I think that this is where Gen X is probably starting to, not Gen X, what's the new one?

17:11

Holly: Gen X then millennials then Gen Z, then there's alpha.

17:15

Harley: That's what I'm thinking of Gen Z, I think are increasingly like, create the box be whatever you want to be, I don't give a shit. And you find that older generations are the ones that tend to be, and I'm actually included in that. So, we're elder millennials?

17:29

Holly: We are elder millennials.

17:32

Harley: But I would even include kind of our generation in that. And certainly, previous generations, often the connection that they have about like, oh, people want to be addressed all these different ways. And this, that, and the other hand, and it really comes down to I can't fit you in a box. And I'm angry that I don't know where to put you because now my filing system is locked up. And this is where maybe ADHD comes in handy. Because I'm like, Oh, baby, my filing system was fucked up well before your pronoun change. We're not talking about my filing system. You said they. Cool, I can work with that.

18:06

Holly: I guess this also comes down to like the generational issues and the role models and things because we can see that Evelyn had no role models. It was illegal, it was brushed under the rug and everything. And we can also see that Kit doesn't really have any role models, either. But she's still in a better position because she's generationally a few years later. Post Stonewall. She's got access to things like the Internet where she can research these things. And I think it's like 2017, I thought they were born in the ’80s. But the final? I think you're right because Nina was on the cover in the ’80s.

18:50

Harley: Mick Riva was a ’60s star. So, for him to have kids, you would have had to have them.

18:55

Holly: Yeah. So, she hasn't quite had access to the internet.

18:59

Harley: But she's got the 14-part Encyclopedia Britannica.

19:03

Holly: Yeah, that probably doesn't mention anything.

19:09

Harley: I think that's as close as they get to the internet, but she is not far off.

19:10

Holly: So, she is in a better position. But she still doesn't have those role models, which is probably why she it took her so long to realize that she wasn't straight.

19:18

Harley: Yeah. Well, and I think too, it's like it is very modern, and I think we underestimate how modern it is. But it's a very modern theme to have access to the idea that you might be something other than the default setting from a fairly early age. And I think that that comes in line with like, absolutely all of the work that people have done to be seen. And all the people who've had more courage than Evelyn at least to be out in the open about something that is dangerous.

19:47

Holly: Yeah, it's definitely a generational and a like a generational parenting thing.

19:51

Harley: But it’s also access to things like the internet because I know being an older millennial of a generation that kind of, I grew up throughout the birth of the internet becoming what it is today, like, I mean, the internet was technically around before I was born, but it kind of came into mainstream use over my childhood into early adulthood.

20:14

Holly: Like, I didn't really have access to the internet until I was in high school. We had a computer at home, but we didn't really use it for anything.

20:22

Harley: But I still remember that like, I mean, it was an old computer by that stage. But they were still recent enough that I remember like school had it. My primary school had some old computers with the green text on the black screen.

20:35

Holly: Yeah, yeah, I think we had one of those in the classroom.

20:39

Harley: So, it's very much that thing of the way that you have access to I think we were probably the first generation really, aside from like, hardcore nerds, we were the first generation to really have easy access to people like us, regardless of where in the world we are. Because prior to that, the only access that you had to people was people around you. So, if you grew up in a small country town, or you grew up in a huge town, but or a city or whatever, but people around weren't like you, you had no frame of reference for that. And I think that's the thing that Kit falls into is that she does have people around her like her and that her siblings like to surf and obviously, Malibu is surfing. So, she does have people around her in that sense. And it's her coming to realize that it's something that she's never identified because those people aren't around her mentally or physically. And so yeah, there's that, like, she doesn't have the role models. But also, she doesn't have access the way that we do today to people like her traveling alone.

21:44

Holly: Yeah, and now it's, you know, we know exactly where to look. can Google anything from your phone from your watch even.

21:51

Harley: I think particularly around the, well, the entire alphabet, but particularly around being gay or lesbian. It's something that is not only that you're able to access but something that is for most of the western world anyway, really easy to access.

22:08

Holly: Yeah, we're very lucky in particularly in Australia, in Melbourne, we have gay clubs, we have down the road, just down the road from here. We've got a beautiful, rich culture that comes with it. There's still stigma. Yes, there's still violence, yes. But it's much better than a lot of the world. And they're very accepting. They're very accommodating and welcoming of anyone to the scene, provided you're not there just to go cut them.

22:36

Harley: Yeah, I think there's, it's easy to go, Oh, look at how far they've come. No more needs to be done. And I don't think that's accurate at all. Like you said, there's still stigma there, still, that kind of stuff. But I do think it's really like I appreciate despite the fact that doesn't necessarily personally affect me. I appreciate that we live in a city and a country with like Russia, where you can still be jailed for it and still illegal and even speaking out about it, you are pretty much guaranteeing that you and your entire family are going to have a bad time. I think that it's important when you're looking at the history of it, you're looking at, say everywhere you go, you need to kind of look at the context of somewhere like Russia, where it's easy to think of that it's something that's like all those crazy like, Middle Eastern countries where you can't even bring in sex toys, or places like Russia, where it's illegal to be gay. That's so backwards that so far away. We've never been like that. But actually, really, really recently, we totally were.

23:34

Holly: You can still find people to have conversations with that lived through it. And won't be like that for much longer because that generation is dying out. But at the moment you can still access those people. Which is scary.

23:48

Harley: And I think that it's really important. I think that often especially when things become mainstream, we tend to clean them up. And I think it's really important. I find this especially around because I grew up because my grandmother was as much an activist as she was just a woman who happened to love another woman. I grew up around drag queens and queer events, and all that kind of stuff. And I very much see, I mean, even if you watch early seasons, and RuPaul’s Drag Race versus modern seasons of it, you see the cleaning up of drag culture over that where it's like, it used to be something that and not all cleaning up is bad. Like I mean, there was a lot of sexual abuse and cultural appropriation and stigmatism that was dangerous for people's lives and things like that. That was like it needed to be cleaned up. But it's also important to remember that I mean, a lot of the people who participated in things like the Stonewall riots, a lot of the people who paved the way for trans people to be seen and heard and treated with respect granted, not by all members of society, but increasingly by more and more of society. Often, I mean, especially for trans people, or for people who were drag queens and things like that they had no choice but to be sex workers, they had no choice and not, I am a high-class escort and look at me, I'm so fancy, I'm getting designer stuff. More like street walking, which is inherently incredibly dangerous. And it is dangerous on another level, because I mean, sex workers are still considered an easy target for a lot of like serial killers or assaults or things like that. And when you combine, being a sex worker with being other again, in some kind of way, whether that's being trans or gay, or whatever other things like, you know, there's so many different avenues you can go down. It's another layer of being invisible and not being safe, because society and the systems that are supposed to keep us safe, like the police and all that kind of thing, are not actually invested in keeping us safe.

25:49

Holly: No, and especially with like the AIDS epidemic, where gay men were literally just left to die, rather than be treated.

25:56

Harley: Because then there are even other gay men wouldn't often have anything to do with them.

26:00

Holly: Ostracized, you know.

26:05

Harley: Part of the reason why the AIDS epidemic became such a thing is because it was dismissed as a gay thing. And so, it was not taken seriously, because they were like, Oh, well serves you right for being gay. Instead of going, This is an STD and it needs to be treated as one. And everybody can suffer from this. And frankly, even if you do have it, because you're gay, so what? You're still somebody who has is suffering a disease and has every right to be treated like a human. I don't know. I just I think it's really, I mean, it's not particularly addressed in these books, because it's not what those books are about. But it's really important to understand the social context of the time periods in which these books are written, especially for The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo, where it is more central to the overall story. It's really, really important to understand why the decisions were being made in context and the society that they were being made in because it is not like a celebrity today and like I mentioned earlier, that people still talk about having like celebrities having beards, like I know Taylor Swift is often accused of covering for gay men and or covering her own sexuality and things like that. And secretly having girlfriends and all that stuff whether she does or doesn't, Taylor Swift and who she has as a beard has absolutely no relevance to my life. But there is still you know, blind items about those celebrity marriages especially.

27:30

Holly: Well and was it Rebel Wilson who was recently, they threatened to out her? I can’t remember which channel it was, but it was maybe Channel 7. I apologize to Channel 7 if it wasn't Channel 7, but there was a news outlet that basically got evidence that I think it was, Wilson was gay and had a female partner, whatever. And they reached out to her and basically said, we're running this piece on whatever date you've got 48 hours to either make a statement to give us a statement or something. And she said Fuck ya. And she outed herself before they could and then they got shitty with her because she ruined the story for them. But how in 2022 is that still happening?

28:14

Harley: It happened not too long ago, actually, with what's her name. Anyway, long story short, she has been like a YouTuber forever. She's like one of the major makeup gurus, this Dutch girl, or Dutch woman. And she had to come out with a video maybe a year or two ago, where she essentially had to admit that she was trans. So, she'd been born male and transitioned. I mean, there was some of the transition. If you go back and see early videos, you're like, Okay, I can see what was happening there. But she always identified as a woman on her channel, and nobody had any reason to question it. And I mean, I certainly, it's often one of those things. Actually, I find that people will go on to be like, Oh, do you think they're gay? Or like, What read are you getting? And I'm like, To be perfectly honest, I didn't think about it. Like, I just it's not that I don't have any data. It's just that I don't look at everybody and go, Who are you trying to fuck? Unless I'm working. In which case I'm literally just like, are you interested in me? Are you needing to get out of my way? Yeah. NikkieTutorials that's it.

29:14

Holly: Nikkie de Jager.

29:17

Harley: De Jager I believe that?

29:19

Holly: Oh, yeah. Cuz Dutch. I mean, I can sort of see from her facial structure that you could kind of make those claims but she's…

29:31

Harley: Also, an associate somebody who's always like very upfront about like, you know, heavier coverage looks and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, there is that touch of like, drag there, but it's also just that theatrical makeup. Where, to be fair, I've never obsessively watched her. But I just like, I have watched a video or two where I'm like, yeah, no, I like I love that theatrical kind of thing. I'm getting too old for it. Yeah, everything settles into the creases.

29:55

Holly: But all you need to know is that she's absolutely gorgeous. Yeah, she's hot as hell and she can do makeup really fucking well. Oh my god is out here without makeup?

30:04

Harley: Yeah so, she’s an incredibly talented makeup artist and at the end of the day, what genitals she was born with have absolutely no relevance to her skill with makeup or anything that she's done in her career. And she's got a new fan now in Holly.

30:27

Holly: She’s hot, it’s just hard to have creases. I will watch and admire. I will not try.

30:32

Harley: I mean, the fact that she had to come out and share that part of herself with the YouTube audience because somebody wanted to out her and somebody was trying to blackmail her with this. There still is that kind of stuff existing. I get where celebrities are, like, you know, especially if you are in a sphere like say country music, where often it's still quite Christian. So, people do still have quite archaic views, it can be a case of look, maybe it's not illegal. And maybe I won't be put in jail or have to deal with the lynch mob for this. But I also can take my career overnight by admitting to it. So, I don't want to admit it.

31:11

Holly: Yeah. And this is why Evelyn went to such great lengths to hide her relationship with Celia why she married me why she had been in relationships where she had all of these little lovely four-way arrangements going on. Because she wanted to keep the fame and she wanted to keep the fortune and she didn't want to be, you know, ostracized.

31:35

Harley: I do think it goes beyond that. Because I mean, at the time period, and she does mention it at one point, I think when she's convincing Celia to let her run off with me, or actually, possibly after when Celia is upset about it, but she's like, I'll put us in an asylum. And this was the reality is the guy who put in prison and gay women were put in asylums and forced to submit to things like electroshock therapy and incredibly inhumane treatment, because let's be honest, psychiatry is still playing catch up, especially for women. So, when they weren't even trying to catch up, good lord.

32:08

Holly: They were used as test subjects.

32:10

Harley: Or just the like, you know what will fix this in Celia and Evelyn’s situation, a good old-fashioned lobotomy. And then they'll either be brain-dead or not a problem. And so, it's not just that, I think these days, it is fear of losing your career or fear of losing your social standing or not being ready to, for multiple reasons, come to terms with who you are as a person, which is something that you can face, regardless of your sexuality, or gender identity or any of that stuff. But at that time period, where these things were said, you weren't just ruining your life in terms of ruining your career or having your family not speak to you anymore, or any of that kind of stuff, which is absolutely still relevant, still valid, you just had that additional thing of the like, we will be committed to spending the rest of our lives being treated incredibly inhumanely. And in some ways. I think being dubbed crazy is worse, because how do you convince someone you're not crazy?

33:11

Holly: Yeah, it's very difficult. And then once you know Evelyn had Connor, her daughter, there was that whole other level as well, what would happen there they arrest Harry, institutionalize Evelyn, and then Connor would just end up in foster care or some sort of system.

33:30

Harley: Assuming they didn't just jump the gun and put her in an asylum as well, because she would have spent her whole life being like, We've got to watch out for any of that deviance you come from two deviant people. So yeah, it's like, you know, I think that there's a lot of layers to that wanting to and I really do think that that a silencing becomes important when you look at how, like, you look at the marriage to make and how Celia is like, You did it to protect yourself. And she's like, No, I did protect you. And I think that they're both right. But I do think that it's not necessarily like, because she let stuff go with Celia a lot, it's not necessarily really addressed that she, like Celia doesn't fully understand, I think the consequences.

34:11

Holly: I think in that situation, Celia was being a little naive. I think everyone could have explained it a little bit more. But I think Celia kind of weaponized her naivety in that scenario. And I know that it was a very sore point for her the fact that everyone had been with men and do love men as well as women. But yeah, I mean, Celia was a very complicated character.

34:41

Harley: I mean, this is what makes the book so good is that she writes humans and the reality is, like, I've met people who have grown up in such a bubble, that they've got no concept of things going wrong in a way that I'm so conscious of things going wrong, because I did not have the luxury of that bubble. I was aware from a very young age—for different reasons, it's not like I  had a dad who beat the shit out of me or was trying anything or any of that kind of stuff. But I grew up very conscious from a very early age of the rough edges of the world and you can't unsee that. And I like that part of the problem in their relationship is that Evelyn is the kind of person who will never not see the rocks at the bottom of the cliff. And Celia will never not see that it looks like a good cliff to jump off of, like, It looks fun. And Evelyn’s like, Do you know how many rocks there are under the surface? You could die. And so, they kind of throw themselves into life based on that.

35:35

Holly: Yeah, I think that comes from their upbringing as well. Celia had a very sheltered life, came from money, whereas Evelyn didn't. And she quickly learned that a marriage or a sham marriage fixes everything. And so, she had six of them. Well, I mean, the marriage to Harry, I guess it was part of the sham. Oh, Don wasn't a sham. So, six shams. And then one…? I mean, she did kind of sort of marry Celia in a little bedroom pillow wedding that they had, which was a bit cute.

36:15

Harley: I think honestly, all of it comes down to I could talk for weeks and weeks and weeks about how much I love these books. But I do think it comes down to she writes really human characters.

36:23

Holly: She does. And then perhaps we do that one, and we do the other one that's already been released. Another double feature.

36:31

Harley: I’m down. I can't remember the name of it. But she's literally advertised as the author of the other one, and I can't remember it. Daisy Jones and the Six. Actually, something I did want to talk about with Nina was because I think we've talked a lot about how, I mean, obviously, we've talked a lot about how we both advocate for gay rights, and for people having that kind of thing, which is not necessarily directly relevant to us, but relevant, because you know, we're humans, who have empathy and compassion for other people, and also are perfectly aware that who you are fucking is not my business. But I think also, we've talked a lot about Evelyn, in terms of celebrity in terms of kind of how we kind of connect to these characters, because we may not be celebrities, but we are professional, beautiful people, and we kind of get that charisma thing and we get that persona thing. I think it's really, really worth talking about Nina from the I mean, we're both firstborn daughters, and we both kind of perhaps have overdeveloped sense of responsibility. And how do I put this nicely? Crazy? In the same way that Nina is crazy. But also, completely different. I'm actually going to look it up if you want to talk about how you feel about Nina for a second.

37:44

Holly: I have lots of feelings for Nina. Yeah, I do. I love her. I think she, in a lot of ways also sort of reminds me of—what’s the character's name from Shameless? Fiona Gallagher.

38:01

Harley: She reminds you of Fiona Gallagher?

38:04

Holly: Yeah, so Nina, and a lot of ways I think reminds me of Fiona Gallagher, from Shameless in the same way that she is the eldest sibling, both sets of families have more or less been abandoned by one parent, and then the second parent, although with Shameless, he does come back and forth a little bit. And then once these eldest siblings kind of realize that the younger siblings are going to be okay, without them, they get this sense of freedom, and they're able to actually leave and start their legitimate life.

38:43

Harley: Yeah. So, this is the quote, sorry, I'm not commenting beyond that, because I've not seen Shameless. So, I agree with the bit about Malibu Rising. But beyond that, it's your opinion, you’re entitled to it, you sound like you're correct, but I'm not going to comment. So, the quote that I found really, like, I highlighted it, literally, for myself, was: “Too much self-sufficiency was sort of mean to the people who loved you, Kit thought. You robbed them of how good it feels to give, of their sense of value.” And I know, this is something that like, I like doing stuff for other people, but I am self-sufficient to a fault where it's very, very hard. And I'm making a conscious effort, increasingly, to allow people to help, allow people in to see that I may, in fact, not be a robot with no human feelings. And I like that quote really resonated with me because it means that like, you know, I really appreciate, so often people will be like, Thank you so much. I can't believe you've done all this stuff for me. And I'm like, No, I get value out of it as well. And we mean it. And yet I when the roles are reversed, I'm like, What do you get out of me being a neurotic mess? Like, No, no, I'll just take care of it. It's fine.

39:48

Holly: Which kind of comes from a few different places. I think part of it is that you're comfortable to do those things for yourself without letting anyone else do it. Because you're sort of afraid of that failure for them letting you down. And so, you're happy to just go ahead and do it rather than ask for help, because you don't want to be let down again, but also the consequence.

40:11

Harley: I think this is really relevant for Malibu Rising is, so Nina never asks Mick for help, she never reaches out to him for money, she never reaches out to him to sign stuff or to be a parent or any of that kind of stuff. Because the consequences of him saying no, are worse than the consequences of never asking. So never asking, they’re poor and she's got to work out how to make all this stuff happen. And she's got to drop out of school. And she's got to show her ass on magazine covers in order to make money. But the consequence of not doing it in that situation is that everybody, it kind of comes to light that he's not there, and the younger sister is taken away from them. And then by the time she's 18, and it doesn't matter because she can adopt them, or she has adopted them at one point. It's kind of past the point of really, like she's already locked into that self-sufficient thing by that stage. So yeah, she never asked him for anything.

41:09

Holly: And that's it. So, they went to petition the courts on her 18th birthday. And then a few weeks later, it's all approved and everything. And we don't actually know if it's approved, because he said yes, or if he just didn't respond. And I think that's very much true to his character. And I sort of like that we don't know what happens there. And I think the other kind of place that that behavior comes from, is being forced to be resilient. At a young age, when you're forced to be resilient, you want to protect other people from having to feel that. And that's why you would do everything for them why she was so protective of kit because she had to be everything from such a young age, she had to parent her, her siblings, and she also had to keep her mother in check. You know, there was a scene where the mother almost dropped the lit cigarette on Kit. And we see you know, the mother dying, because she was there, or the kids were out of the house. So, she drank all the vodka. So, she had the tequila that was in the house, and she had a bath. And then, she just never woke up.

42:15

Harley: And I think it's also that thing of the work when there is legitimately no one else. So, you kind of develop those self-sufficient traits. Because your work legitimately. Who else is that? Like? I mean, the reality of my life now is like, when I have had the flu in the past year, no ones coming to make me soup and look after me

42:34

Holly: like that. I 100%. Would if you asked, that you would not just like I wouldn’t.

42:39

Harley: But I mean, it's only really kind of recently in my life that I've built in enough people that I can go Yeah, actually, I could ask for that. Because for a long part of my life, even when I did have like, even when I was living with my mom, and all that kind of stuff. I mean, I had bad tonsillitis, like I had it so bad, they just gave me the shot because I couldn't even swallow water at that stage. If I lay down, I couldn't breathe properly. I mean, it's also inherited because my mom also was on her own from 15. So, there was no one for her. So, it is a family story.

43:10

Holly: Just as these stories are.

43:13

Harley: Well, actually, that was the other highlight. I realized when I went through this, our family histories are simply stories. They are myths we create about the people who came before us in order to make sense of ourselves. And I think that's also a really profound kind of sentence. Where, yeah, like, there's stories that we inherit through multiple generations of our family, there's traumas that we inherit through multiple generations of our family, and so much of who we are, is tied back into our family. And I mean, even though I know you and I have had the conversation, where it's like, do I have a personality? Or do I just have ADHD and firstborn daughter syndrome? With a weird bit of parentification and trauma thrown in. Because every time we think it's a personality trait, it turns out, I have not yet defined the personality trait that isn't directly related to, even like empathy. People with ADHD and autism often score really highly on empathy. I can't just be like, I'm an empathetic person be like, no, no, that's just a symptom.

44:11

Holly: I like books. Is that a hyper-fixation?

44:16

Harley: Do they give you dopamine? Oh, yeah, they do. Yeah, that's just your brain pressing the dopamine button.

44:23

Holly: Anyway, back to the book.

44:27

Harley: Less about us and how fucked up we are. But, you know, I think that that was one of the things that was really kind of cool about Malibu Rising was that like, those stories that get told and also the kind of juxtaposition of the things that we take from the family, like the learned behaviors, but also the things that stick in place or the things that happen because people aren't there and arguably met created the same system that he had with his dad, by trying to not be his dad.

44:52

Holly: Whereas Hudson is making a conscious effort to break that. Yeah. Which I think is very on point I think all a lot of Gen Xers and millennials in particular are working to break those generational habits and move forward and build children who are prepared for the world. And who can take down these institutions from the inside. The world is going to be a very different, different place.

45:21

Harley: I can’t wait to be an old woman who's like I'm crotchety? Because I can't keep up with the world because I look forward to seeing what world it is. But I can't keep up with and I'm really hoping it's not the metaverse.

45:30

Holly: It's probably going to be the metaverse.

45:33

Harley: But come on, kids, do better. I have faith in you. All right. Well, final thoughts on Malibu Rising?

45:41

Holly: Oh, I don't know. I loved it. I really loved it. I read it in like, more or less one sitting or as much as I could in lockdown. Last year, I really, really felt a lot. For Nina in particular.

45:59

Harley: I think that be summed up by the fact that I read the book almost in one sitting and then immediately messaged you and was like, Thank you so much for recommending that, like, I'm so glad we decided to do the double feature, because I knew that I loved The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo, but I hadn't paid that much attention to Taylor Jenkins Reid as an author. So, I don't know that I would have gotten to Malibu Rising anytime soon. And I'm really glad to have read it. I think that it's gonna go on my list of books that I'm like, I wish I could read that for the first time.

46:32

Holly: Which is a very different message to what I sent you when I finished The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo. Yeah, I believe it was all bold: Fuck you for not warning me about that twist.

46:46

Harley: So, we changed our minds about that, we decided to not cover the twist, not because we don't think it's really powerful and profound and dominant, but because it is so powerful and profound that it deserves to be kind of kept secret and kept off.

46:58

Holly: So, I will say one thing about the ending of Seven Husbands, once you hit that twist in, trust me, you know which twist it is. It's just a rollercoaster ride until the end. So, I even before the last few chapters, if you can block out a period of time and sit down and not have to do anything, be able to just power through that sort of last quarter, maybe last third of the book in one sitting. And then, had time to process it after she's done a really beautiful scene where you're hit with event, tiny bit of recovery event, tiny bit of recovery event. And so, you are just so raw, there's no very little recovery in between them. It just leaves you really gets out of your skin.

47:52

Harley: I'd also say it's one of those twists that you absolutely don't see coming, but it makes perfect sense.

47:57

Holly: Absolutely makes perfect sense. It is probably one of my favorites I would say my one my favorite twist that I've come across in a book. I absolutely love those books by Usain Bolt down. You just want to go Oh my god, no.

48:09

Harley: Like I very much know that when I first read it. My thought process was like, completely blindsided. But also, of course, it always had to be like this always had to be.

48:22

Holly: It makes sense.

48:24

Harley: This is so predictable, like, it's so obvious, it should have been predictable, but it never even occurred to me to think it.

48:32

Holly: But this is what I was saying earlier about the breadcrumbs, you're left breadcrumbs leading you towards a different twist, and that twist still happens, but this one bit shocks you.

48:44

Harley: On a reread, you are given breadcrumbs to it—you're just given breadcrumbs in a way that she does like that real life and that casual kind of thing. You don't even realize that they're irrelevant. So, you know, you're like, of course, I saw breadcrumbs. I walked past 12 different bread bakeries. The important part is the breadcrumbs that were on the walk that I was going on, like, you know what I mean? Which is why because those little crumbs that you don't realize the crumbs are there, because you focused on the ones that you can actually see. Like, that's clearly a breadcrumb.

49:15

Holly: You just think it's Monique's backstory.

49:19

Harley: Yeah, and everything just falls into place in that way but like I think that's part of what makes it really work because you are like, obviously, but also what the fuck, like, Oh my God, of course, but oh my god. Yeah, I think that that's just honestly it hurt. Her technical ability is just beyond, it's a sucker punch.

49:45

Holly: But to nail that sucker punch and craftily piling on the raw, like, breaking down your defenses and already putting you into that kind of emotional like you've you're so invested in these characters. You've been hurt by them, and then to lay on that final blow.

50:00

Harley: But I also think that layer of like to be able to write because, the reality of fiction versus reality is much harder to pull something off in fiction than it is in real life because you have to have a layer of like believability or a layer of setup in fiction that real life doesn't always have. Sometimes she just comes out of the blue, there were no breadcrumbs, there was no smoking gun and the shit just happened. You can't do that in a story. So, the way that she's managed to leave those little bits where it does feel inevitable and obvious, but also was completely out of nowhere, is just such a level of technical skill because most writers, even most really good writers, would have telegraphed that their breadcrumbs would have telegraphed it. And she didn't telegraph it for a second.

50:46

Holly: I think even the fact that the blurb had no mention of Celia. I know, like, across the internet and everything. So, I actively avoided because I knew it was on my to-read list, I actually avoided reading anything, watching anything, any reviews, nothing, I just skipped straight past them. So, it wasn't until she began to answer the question, Who is the lover? Or who was the love of your life? That I had any clue that it was going to be a woman. I had no idea there was this homosexualness to this.

51:19

Harley: That's also a question that comes up really naturally. Because of course, you know, there's this woman with seven husbands, it's fairly natural. And I think we see it in real life in Liz Taylor and things like that. It's really natural to go okay, but if you've married all these men, which one were you really in love with? And that's where the question starts. You've got seven husbands, who did you really love? And I mean, initial twist of the book is that she did have one true love, and it wasn't any of them.

51:43

Holly: Yeah, which I think is such a cheeky play on the name.

51:48

Harley: But I mean, it goes to show too, how much it especially existing at that time, regardless of her sexuality, and where in the spectrum, she sits, and all that kind of stuff. Her life was defined by the men that marked these different points in her life. So even though her life is not really for them, they're the ones that made those kind of marking points. So, Nina is, and this is arguably still true on Hollywood, the whole casting couch thing and all that stuff is that it's men making decisions for women's lives regardless of because it's obviously it's a very different thing to, and Harry's probably the exception to this. But it's a very different thing to like an actual healthy relationship where if you're married for however many, like 40 years, if you're in a defacto relationship for 40 years, there's a man who's going to impact the way that your life has progressed. But it's not because he has a dick, it's because he's your life partner. Whereas the like all the other ones the like the sham marriages, and the hot producers and all that kind of stuff. A lot of the time they are defining points in her life, or they're controlling points in her life, despite the fact that they're not that they have no right to really, but they just have a presumed right because of their penis.

53:02

Holly: It is a book about decisions that were made for her by men.

53:09

Harley: And navigating a world where her role is to cater to men, even if that's not in alignment with who she truly is as a person, which again, circles back around to one of the reasons why I liked it so much is because I really related to her as a professional hot girl, and also possess her fantastic titties and no ass. I'm not even remotely Cuban, so there’s that.

53:38

Holly: Which is a whole other layer that we didn't even discuss is the repressing of her culture and her family.

53:46

Harley: She replaces it so thoroughly that it's almost not relevant even though it is because it obviously impacts her. And I mean, it plays into when you're used to repressing parts of yourself to be more palatable. Changing what part of yourself you're repressing is really not as hard as learning to not repress things.

54:05

Holly: But yeah, we don't ever really see it, except from when her…

54:08

Harley: When she’s eavesdropping on the maid and it's like, I understand you.

54:11

Holly: Yeah. And then when she speaks Spanish at the end once they've moved to Spain.

54:17

Harley: I think that's another really good point that we probably didn't touch on is that repressing one part of yourself often leads to repressing other parts of yourself. So it is that like, you know, it was really early on a necessity for her to repress who she really was to get roles because she wasn't getting roles as a Cuban American woman. She was only gonna get roles if she turned into a perfect blonde starlet, with the white girl-sounding name.

54:41

Holly: And she was very young. I mean, she got her dad to sign…

54:46

Harley: She was only 17 when she picked up in Hollywood wasn't cheap. Yeah, maybe it was 15 when she married. And then 17 when she went off into Hollywood. Yeah, so she was like 18 at most by the time she made the decision to repress her culture in order to be successful. And I think it's interesting that Harry's the one that had that frank conversation with her given that he was repressing part of himself as well. Yeah, because he's flat-out said to her. She's like, Why am I not getting these parts, like, I'm good enough to do it, what the hell's going on? And he's like, I hate to break it to you, but they're casting white girls in these roles. So, until you appear to be a white girl, you're not going to get the role. And of course, she then represses that part of herself. And there’s another scene where it's like, Celia has never had to repress that part of her. So, she changed her name for the fun of it all, and to be a character, but she never had to. She was always just that naturally beautiful white girl,

55:50

Holly: who was able to have acting lessons and who was poached. Yeah, sure, are privileged.

55:55

Harley: She also Yeah, like she just never had to repress any part of herself in order to do the thing that she wanted to do. So, I think it's natural for her to go, why should I have to repress something, and it's natural for Evelyn to go? Why would you repress the bits that aren't palatable? Like, how you succeed, you repress everything.

56:15

Holly: I guess that's why, to Celia, it was harder for her to really deny who she was with her, you know, love. And her love for Evelyn, she wanted to be out.

56:27

Harley: I think that's also why it's hard for Evelyn, even when she's at a point where theoretically, it shouldn't matter anymore, when they can afford to go to other countries, and they can afford to live in such a wealthy bubble. But really, they could do whatever they wanted, and be open about it, she still has a lot of that repression, I think, because it's so ingrained into who she is, because she has been learning to repress parts of herself from such a young age, even arguably, before she was famous. She was repressing things in order to like finding ways to navigate her father and his friends starting to find attractive and she's repressing the fact that she's technically too young to run off with this boy, in order to get herself to safety. And so, she's always had this repression.

57:11

Holly: And had to navigate men from such a young age and presenting what society needs to see from her.

57:15

Harley: Yeah, rather than what's actually going on I think it's just a beautifully developed character. And clearly, I have very rambling final thoughts.

57:27

Holly: Yes, we both do.

57:32

Harley: Yeah, I honestly, I'm such a big fan of Taylor Jenkins Reid. I don't even really have words to say how much of a fan I am. I think that she's told beautiful stories like this. It's just a good story. Because that's the thing is often somebody who's a really great technical writer isn't a very good storyteller. So, she's an exceptional storyteller. But then she's also an exceptional writer.

57:54

Holly: And is thorough in her history. And in her research.

58:00

Harley: And those things often get overlooked. So you get a lot of people who are great storytellers, but arguably not very good writers in that technical sense. And I mean, even you could argue someone like Stephen King could potentially fall in that category. I'm not starting a debate on whether or not he's a good writer. I think he is a good writer. But he's not aiming for technical perfection, what he's aiming for, is that really good story. So primarily, he's a really good storyteller. And you can certainly say the same thing actually, about JK Rowling. She has so many plot holes in her books, like from a technical standpoint, problem after problem, but she's such a fantastic storyteller that an entire generation or two fell in love with a world that she created at Hogwarts.

58:43

Holly: If you have seen any plot holes in any of these books, and have bought any of Jenkins Reid’s books, please let us know. I would love to know, but I just don't think there are any.

58:57

Harley: You're like, Oh my god, they're all in this other one. And I was like, Wait, what?

59:01

Holly: Yeah. It was a voice note. Oh, my God. Okay, so of the two, Harley, which one was your favorite?

59:12

Harley: Oh, that's the main question, isn't it? I want to say The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo purely because as brilliant as it was, and as much as I loved it, Malibu Rising did feel like watching a car crash happen in slow motion. So, it was perfectly done as it was it was a little bit painful, like in the best possible way and it shouldn't not be that, but it also was like this isn’t fun to watch. And I didn't find that so much with The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo, because that crash moment. Literally. It didn't happen so much of The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo because that car crash moment was so sudden. So, you weren't seeing you were seeing that kind of like end-of-life thing for her and that reflective thing but that's not inherently a car crash. You know what I mean? It's just back over what you've done in that. So yeah, the car crash kind of moment was really started—it wasn't this like a slow-motion build-up. All of Malibu Rising was just it's one car crash happening in slow motion. And it's a full-lane pile-up. It's not just a little thing.

1:00:21

Holly: No, someone's driven off the Westgate.

1:00:23

Harley: Yeah. What about you? What was your favorite?

1:00:25

Holly: Yeah, see, I can't really answer it either.

1:00:29

Harley: I've worked out mine.

1:00:31

Holly: No, I will, I will, I will. Okay, so, I love the entire story of Malibu Rising. I loved it from start to finish. Seven Husbands did lose me a little bit in the middle. A smidgy bit. And then the last little bit. I absolutely fell in love with it. And those last few smackdowns just, I think it's the best ending. Yeah, but I think I'm gonna go with Malibu Rising. I'm a little bit more relatable to me. I can see myself a little bit more in Nina that I can Evelyn. And I really loved all of it from start to finish. But I did adore the ending.

1:01:12

Harley: Yeah, it is a half a point between them.

1:01:14

Holly: I agree.

1:01:18

Harley: Because yeah, it's like, as much as I have said all this stuff about Seven Husbands being my favorite because of all of these things, I could say just as many good things about Malibu Rising. I really liked that everybody was human. And I really liked that you spent a lot more time in that kind of real world, I guess, like outside that bubble of celebrity. And yeah, I related to it more. I don't know that I necessarily relate to Nina more than I relate to Evelyn. I think I relate to Evelyn more. But I relate to the story of Malibu Rising more than I relate to the story of Seven Husbands. Almost like I'm not a film star.

1:01:56

Holly:  first, I'm learning about this.

1:01:59

Harley: If they ever make a make the TV or make a movie out of Seven Husbands. I'm just saying I've got the body for it. She was a fake blonde anyway, who gives a shit? I got the tits for it. And I'm not afraid to almost show them on screen.

1:02:14

Holly: Perfect.

1:02:16

Harley: Acting ability questionable.

1:02:18

Holly: But could you do a sex scene with your ex?

1:02:25

Harley: Absolutely. I could. I'm like, I go work mode really easy. I told you I relate to Evelyn. Might be a schootch method on that one, not that I’m sleeping with people or getting married left, right center, but…

1:02:36

Holly: Hey, you never know. That was very rambly episode but thank you for joining us.

1:02:41

Harley: That's what editing is for. I can edit out my pitch to become a Hollywood star. I feel like this like the default pitch. And it's like I actually I mean, to be fair with like, some Hollywood producer called me and was like, We want you for Evelyn that I wouldn't say no, because that is such my life that is like, this is so fucking random. I cannot say no. But it's not something I'm in any way actively pursuing. So around halfway through a pitch when I make like whenever I'm pitching the why am I pitching is I feel like that all the time. All right, thank you for listening.

1:03:15

Holly: The books we referenced will be in the show notes with links and such.

1:03:19

Harley: I think it's almost entirely just going to be a little fangirl list of Taylor Jenkins Reid. If you're Taylor Jenkins Reid, big fans, big fans.

1:03:29

Holly: So, we can do another double feature on you.

1:03:32

Harley: If you've read either of these books or any of her other work and you are interested in us doing another Taylor Jenkins Reid episode, let us know. You probably will.

1:03:42

Holly: Regardless, I'm letting you know now, we are.

1:03:45

Harley: But of course, we can move it up or down the timeline depending on what other people are interested in. Because I flat out said to Holly, I was like, I have to actively work to remember that we have another book to read for next week. And I can't just like hold down a fan go rabbit hole and read everything she's ever written. Actually, need to make some time to read other things.

1:04:05

Holly: Power through the other book this weekend. And then you've got three days.

1:04:09

Harley: Yeah, this is not the week for me to power read. I’ve got shit on every single day.

1:04:15

Holly: Yeah, that's my fault.

1:04:20

Harley: God forbid we go have fun and have a laugh

1:04:24

Holly: On your birthday!

1:04:26

Harley: Well, I loved them.

1:04:28

Holly: Yep. Love Malibu Rising, wasn't until I read Seven Husbands that I realized I loved the author. I think I will be devouring, or we both will be devouring her entire works.

1:04:41

Harley: I think I had the exact same experience just in reverse. Yeah. So, thank you TikTok and YouTube for blowing up Seven Husbands thing because that was appearing in my feed nonstop and that's why I read it.

1:04:52

Holly: And thank you Readings for actually having the authors grouped together. So, I could see it together.

1:04:59

Harley: We're not sponsored by TikTok, YouTube or Readings but if you're Readings, hit us up, I mean, if you’re TikTok, or YouTube also hit us up.

1:05:08

Holly: I feel like readings will give a shit first. And that is our pitch.

1:05:16

Harley: I'm just pitching things left, right, and center. All right, thanks, guys. We really appreciate you listening if you've made it this far you’re a legend and if you've made it this far and you haven't read anything by Taylor Jenkins Reid, you’re an insane legend. We'll catch you next time.

TJR Double Feature Part 1 Transcript

© Bimbo Media

00:03

Holly: This is Bimbo Book Club with Holly.

00:12

Harley: And Harley. Okay, so double feature. The backstory for this one, guys, is Holly and I were going to do The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo, which is by Taylor Jenkins Reid.

00:28

Holly: Correct. Yep. Taylor Jenkins Reid.

00:31

Harley: One of us is talking directly at the camera, microphone, and the device. So, we were originally going to do Seven Husbands, which I had previously read. And Holly hadn't.

00:42

Holly: I had not. But when I went into the bookshop to purchase a copy, I noticed that Malibu Rising was by the same author, which I have previously read.

00:54

Harley: So, we decided that we would just swap books. So, I read Malibu Rising.

01:00

Holly: and I read The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo.

01:03

Harley: And our takeaway, if you want the too long, didn't listen version. Fuck me. She's a great writer.

01:09

Holly: Oh, man. She's an incredible writer.

01:13

Harley: So good. I was literally—when I was reading Malibu Rising—there were a couple of thoughts. And I'm not normally someone who highlight sections of books. I read it on Kindle, so I can highlight. But there were a couple of quotes that I highlighted from it because I was just like, Oh, that's actually really profound.

01:29

Holly: I did the same with Evelyn Hugo. Yeah, there's a few quotes that I wrote down.

01:33

Harley: Yeah. I think to one of the things that I really like about her is that she doesn't shy away from the uncomfortable things.

01:42

Holly: No, she doesn't. And she does them in such a way that really gets under your skin. Even if it's not necessarily a life experience, or something that you could relate to. She builds these characters in these scenarios that allow you to really feel and empathize for them. So even if you can't necessarily relate to them, you can still feel what they're feeling.

02:04

Harley: You mean you've never been a surfing superstar?

02:08

Holly: I can promise you I haven't ever been a surfing superstar.

02:10

Harley: Yeah, I would be lucky to stay upright on the board. Balance is not my strong suit. And I'm okay with that.

02:19

Holly: But your tits are probably as lovely as Evelyn Hugo’s. So, you have that.

02:23

Harley: Maybe that's why I find her so relatable. I'm like, Flat ass, big titties?

02:28

Holly: I got you. Yeah, that was basically how she was described in the book.

02:31

Harley: So yeah. Small with just unusually enormous, fantastic tits. That is me. Sadly, I have not managed to make millions off my fantastic titties. Thousands, sure. She realized that money wasn't everything by the time she was 25. So, there's still time for me to become so rich that I'm jaded about money. Yeah, there's still time. I'm comfortable with that being in my future. Well, she still had great cleavage right up until the end.

02:59

Holly: And the end of the book, she was in her 80s. So, there you go. Heaps of time.

03:09

Harley: Nana porn, here we come. I’m cutting that out. And I used to joke about that, because both of us will work—like obviously, one day we want to retire. But there's also a part of us that like, From my cold dead hands. So, we were joking about, like, we'll just end up being those like chicks who end up doing like a nanagram. Do you want a fatagram, do you want a nanagram?

03:32

Holly: I'm sure there's a huge market for it.

03:34

Harley: Probably. And I really feel like it would lend itself to my naturally crotchety nature. Come in and be scary.

03:42

Holly: Turn up to a buck’s party, sit on his lap, and pull out some knitting.

03:46

Harley: Oh my god, I love it. I mean, I've been threatening at the Royal for years to just come out on stage already naked and like read a book, eat a pizza. I'm adding knitting to the bit. Like it's at the point where I'm pretty sure for my retirement show—if I ever retire—when I retire, I'm going to have to come out already naked, eat a pizza, and just leave and be like, That was it, boys.

04:09

Holly: I can't wait to see that. Seriously, imagine just like, Da da da da da, and a crochet hook out of your G string.

04:15

Harley: It turns out my titties are so big, not because they're full of secrets, but because they’re full of wool. No, I'm not kidding. Here's a ball of wool.

04:28

Holly: Okay, should we clap so you know when to cut from?

04:31

Harley: It's fine. It'll be funny to relisten to. Save it! Anyway, no nanagrams in these books. Just lots and lots of I mean, she does write about kind of the rich and famous.

04:46

Holly: Yeah, definitely the lives of the rich and famous.

04:49

Harley: But then very much humanizes them. That’s the thing with Evelyn, isn't it, is that she obviously is supposed to be that like, Marilyn Monroe era style. I know, for me anyway, kind of having grown up with those icons of that generation in the ones that did start like me, obviously, Marilyn died. So, she became iconic in a different way. But they were so manufactured by the studio, that it's easy to forget that they were human and not just icons if that makes sense.

05:18

Holly: Yeah, I think she does that very well, especially in the way that most of the main characters that have risen to fame, and fortune have come from underprivileged backgrounds. So, we get a really decent backstory for them. And we see what they had to strive through and sacrifice to get to where they are, only to realize that money isn't everything.

05:42

Harley: But I think also understanding that money is something. So, this is one of the things that going back to Evelyn Hugo, so, there is a point where Celia St. James is like, Who cares, we can throw our reputation to the wind, and Evelyn is like I can't afford to, there's no fallback here, we will be blacklisted. And we never get out of that blacklisting. And I mean, she traps herself, obviously she's at a point where she's so wealthy, that she's got more money than God and it wouldn't have really mattered. She could have been like, Fuck the police, what are you gonna do? Like, we're moving to Mexico without millions and millions and millions of dollars and living our best life. But, I mean, obviously, it wasn't all about money for her. But there is a point where because Celia grew up with money, she kind of has this idea that it will always be there. Whereas Evelyn is the more cautious of the two, not because she's not afraid of being seen as a lesbian or being seen as bisexual thing that like, she absolutely is afraid of that stuff. But that survival instinct comes from the understanding and the reality that money might not be everything, but it sure is something.

06:46

Holly: Yeah, and I'm gonna butcher this quote, but I remember there was a line in the book that went something along the lines of, Kids who grew up with money, have the luxury of not needing to understand that, but kids that grew up without it, they understand how it works from a very early age.

07:03

Harley: And I think too, I mean, it's not from the book, but there's that thing of the like, money doesn't mean anything unless you have not enough or too much. And I mean, arguably, she bounced very quickly from one end of that spectrum to the other.

07:17

Holly: As does Nina Riva and the family in Malibu Rising.

07:22

Harley: But I think that one of the differences is that Nina was always motivated, Nina was never motivated by a desire for stardom, for money, beyond being able to support her family. So, she's very quick to throw it all away, the second she realizes that she can.

07:39

Holly: Whereas Evelyn wanted to escape her family. And that's why she will partly reason why she chased her first husband to help provide her with that security.

07:50

Harley: She never consciously goes into it, or at least not that I remember, because it was a while ago that I read the whole book. But it's quite a common thing for actual Hollywood starlets to talk about this. But in she never does address it in the book. But that thing of the way, obviously, having grown up in an abusive home, and all that kind of stuff, that desire for love, that often get wires crossed with fame, where it's like she starts off wanting to be yes, wealthy, and not have poverty. But she actually mostly is not driven by money. She's driven by a desire to be seen and to be loved and to be recognized and to be Evelyn Hugo name in lights kind of thing, where it's like, I don't think that ironically, I think Nina was more driven by money. And Evelyn was more driven by fame.

08:37

Holly: Yes. And that I think, is the main distinction between the two of them.

08:41

Harley: And it's why one could throw it away or the other can’t.

08:44

Holly: Exactly. And also like, Nina, she's looking for a means to an end. Whereas Evelyn is more like, enjoying the means. And the end is great.

08:58

Harley: Even when she's talking about doing the massive movie deal, where she becomes America's highest-paid actress, she's more interested in the fact that she's America's highest-paid actress than the specifics of the numbers.

09:11

Holly: Even if it was $1 more, she wouldn't have cared

09:14

Harley: Because it's about that fame, that recognition.

09:16

Holly: And we definitely see that a lot when she doesn't win the awards. And she's quite grumpy.

09:26

Harley: I definitely think that that's a system that like, you think about being trapped in that cycle of so close and not quite getting it and especially the year that she deserved it, but she got blacklisted by her ex. That would be really frustrating. He's almost definitely a massive prick, but Leonardo DiCaprio, always missing out on stuff. There's a point where you're like, I feel for you, man. Especially because there were so many years where he deserved it. He just lost because of reasons outside his control. And I think that's the really hard thing about those awards is that sometimes the reality is that more than one person deserved it. And the other reality is that nobody goes into any kind of performing without liking recognition. And I say that as somebody who I always find it really funny when showgirls are like, No, I'm not an attention seeker. And I'm like, Bitch you’re a showgirl, you get up on stage in front of crowds of people, by yourself, so that everybody will pay attention to you.

10:21

Holly: Yeah, I love the center of attention.

10:24

Harley: 100%. And I think there's healthy attention-seeking and unhealthy attention-seeking. So, I definitely think that it can be a bad thing, but I don't think it's inherently bad. And I think so many people deny it, because they're like, Oh no, I don't want to be seen as someone who's self-absorbed, or thinks everything should be me, me all the time. But that's not what you're saying. You're just saying, You know what, sometimes it's fun to be the center of attention. The way that I can control the room gives me a rush. That's the performance high for me. It's one of the reasons I like performing live.

10:53

Holly: And that's I think part of Evelyn Hugo’s drive to this. While she does sometimes attract the wrong attention, she is trying to seek attention the right way. And morally, it may not have been the right way with some of her husbands and the scandals and things. But ultimately, she was trying to keep her name as pure as she possibly could.

11:17

Harley: But I think it's also a thing of the light. It's that conflict between what she was doing for her career and what she was doing to hide who she really was. Because if you look at the marriage that she has to the guy who stars with her in Anna Karenina, so her marriage to Rex was actually really, really healthy because it was 100% of business arrangement. And they both knew what they were there for. I mean, arguably the same thing with Harry, where it's like, they both knew what they were there for. And so, it was based on rather than being based on a false idea of who the other person was when she thought her first husband…Bryce? Don. That's her second husband, Ernie is her first husband. So, with Don, she thinks she's getting Prince Charming, like the young prince charming of Hollywood. And what she's actually getting is a mean loser, who will beat her up every time he feels like he's not on a winning streak. And what he thinks he's getting is a hot, sexy, but nice little submissive wifey and actually, what he's getting is a feisty lesbian, bisexual, who will not take his shit for a long period of time, you know?

12:28

Holly: So, can we talk about her sexuality for a minute? One thing I really loved about the book is the way that it addressed bi erasure. And she was very, very strict in the I am a bisexual. But then throughout the book, she talks about the many men that she has loves, but ultimately only one woman. And you can see that she's grappled with that concept of being bisexual. You can read it, you can see it, she questions herself. Am I truly bisexual if I've only ever loved one woman? And then on the flip side of that, you see Cecilia, grappling with the idea that Evelyn has been with men. And I quite liked, the way it was portrayed was quite raw.

13:19

Harley: I like too there was one point where she says that every time they fought… When Celia loved her, she was a lesbian. And when Celia was angry at her, she was a straight woman. Yeah. And I think that that's a real kind of raw, honest thing where, especially when you're not 100% sure of your own identity, because you are grappling with feel like, Am I a straight woman who fell in love with a woman? Or am I a lesbian? Who has been conditioned to believe that she likes men? Or am I a bisexual, and I sit somewhere in between? And I think all of those are valid questions, and there's multiple valid answers to any of those things. That's the nice and annoying thing about sexuality is that it's just a big melting pot. And you can have all these weird answers that are super wrong for the person sitting next to you, but 100% right for you.

14:06

Holly: Exactly. When you look at the men that she was with, the men that she married, John, I think was the only one that she actually really wanted to have sex with. She had that drive to be taken by him, whereas the rest were a means to an end.

14:22

Harley: I think the only other one that she could have potentially had sexual chemistry with would have been Mick Riva, but she was deliberately being a bad lay, because she was really just using him. And she was playing that role and all that kind of stuff. And I did like that moment, where she was like, I feel bad for using him in this way. And then realizing that he had no issue doing it back to her was like, I don't know, I really felt that moment because I was like, I know those moments where you can see a man using you for a thing and you're just like, especially when you are say working and you're being a professional, beautiful person and you’re like, I know that I'm playing along to get money, which is perhaps not as disingenuous flying to Vegas and getting married. It's pretty clear like, you know, you walk into a strip club, you know what you're in for, at some point, you're the idiot who's fooling yourself. And I've certainly never said like, Yeah, yeah, we're gonna fall in love get married, like happily ever after. Like I have a very honest hustle. But at the end of the day, I'm still hustling, I'm still selling a fantasy. But then those moments sometimes where you are like, Oh, is this ethical or whatever? And then you see the way that men just really casually use women without even realizing that they're doing it because they're so used to being able to use women to fill a role or do a thing that they need or whatever it is that they don't even, like, register that that is how they are approaching life. And suddenly, the guilt washes away. I'll throw the phone at the wall.

15:48

Holly: When she said that she was giving him what he wanted. She threw it because she knew he'd like it. I was like, Ah, I know exactly what kind of man you are.

15:59

Harley: Exactly the kind that was my I don't understand why like, 16 of my ex-girlfriends have keyed my car. Bitches be crazy.

16:06

Holly: So, nuts.

16:08

Harley: It’s definitely not you choosing particular women is it? Problems not you, Mick, it's not. Until his kids are like, Fuck you, dad. Which actually speaking of Malibu Rising, we haven't spoken about much. Spoiler alert, if you haven't read it, go read it and come back and listen to this. Because we will ruin it for you. And it deserves to be read. Like, often I will go, and I mean, I said this throughout the whole us even discussing doing ACOTAR as a book that like, I'm going to spoil it for you. And I don't even feel that bad. Like, if you liked the books, sure, I'll hold off. But like, there's nothing that I can spoil that is groundbreaking in it, you're not stupid, you'll see it coming a mile away anyway, you reading the first book, and you're like, oh, clearly, it's a Beauty and the Beast analogy, Gee, I wonder if she'll end up with the beast.

16:57

Holly: Whereas with this, these two books in particular, there are some plot twists and raw moments. And I'm very bored usually.

17:07

Harley: I think it’s because it's so real. Because often when I'm reading something, and especially something like a fantasy novel, you are looking for the story tropes. And it's a really reflexive thing to do that, especially if you are a big reader, or you've studied books or things like that you've taught to look for that stuff. So often you are focused on what you can predict, it's like reading a detective novel and being like, who done it and looking for the clues, you're always going to do that. I don't think that these books particularly lend themselves to that so you just go with the flow.

17:39

Holly: You're given breadcrumbs to a different twist, which does happen. You do get that twist that you are predicting, but before you get that twist, you get slammed in the face with something else. Which just makes it so much more amazing. I was actually out at lunch. So, taking myself out to lunch. And I was reading Evelyn Hugo when like the big like, Oh no thing happened. And I like had to close the book, put it down on the table. Take a moment. Not even gonna like to be embarrassed. I was like, borderline sobbing, being like I need to not start crying in public while I'm trying to eat my noodles.

18:18

Harley: Fuck it, cry noodles. Have ’em.

18:20

Holly: Salty. Pick the book back up. And then I literally, I put it down to drive home and then I didn't put it down again until I finished it.

18:28

Harley: So, I read most of Malibu Rising in one sitting at the hairdresser.

18:33

Holly: I'd done the same the first time I read Malibu Rising, I devoured it more or less than one sitting and then having re-read it. I've done it in like, a day and a half.

18:42

Harley: Well, and most of the way through Evelyn Hugo again, I think that The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo have a bigger plot twist because I think that it's more foundational to the story to have that. And part of the point of that whole story is the truths that people denied and themselves throughout their lives and all that stuff.

18:59

Holly: So, if you haven't read Evelyn Hugo…

19:01

Harley: Basically, this is the podcast where we more than any other podcast say fuck our opinions, fuck what we have to say, go read the books, and then come back. And I would actually rather than like this, this good that I would rather people just didn't listen to this podcast, then missed out on just what a glorious thing it is to read the books for the first time and get those endings.

19:25

Holly: So, I guess the first kind of twist with Evelyn Hugo, from the title and from the blurb you assume it's about her seven husbands. Husbands, male, you assume she's straight. Then very quickly, Monique, who is asking her questions to write this book.

19:47

Harley: So, the premise of the book for anybody who doesn't know is that a journalist, this is clearly not Vogue.

19:56

Holly: It’s Vivant, which if you pick it up, it was where Nina got her big break in Malibu Rising.

20:03

Harley: I did not pick that up. But someone's paying attention.

20:06

Holly: Someone is paying attention because I froth that shit.

20:09

Harley: But anyway, so she's working for a New York institution, yada, yada. And these big like, I mean, kind of Liz Taylor inspired, almost star has agreed to do a piece for the magazine. And they've of course, sent out all their top writers being like, You can choose from these people. And she's like, Nah, fuck that. I want this one random journalist.

20:30

Holly: Now that there is a big question as to why this one particular journalist was selected.

20:36

Harley: Yeah, so we actually start the book with Monique, who's the journalist. And so, there is this kind of thing of the like, she's in this spot where she has written at least one piece that was beautifully written enough to get her recognized. But she's also low enough on the totem pole that there is a bit of a like, are you getting using me to essentially, think that I'm too young or too inexperienced to actually hold my own in the interview, so you can just say whatever you want, and I'll just be like, Okay.

21:03

Holly: Now, I think it's kind of important to note that the piece of writing that got her hired at Vivant, and also that got everyone who goes attention was a beautifully written piece on assisted dying, which kind of foreshadows something later on. So that's the plot twist that we are sort of expecting. Yeah, we anticipate it's coming.

21:26

Harley: When she meets Evelyn basically says, I lied about in the magazine piece, I don't want to do it, but I want to give you my life story. And of course, she's been like, one, Why the fuck would you want to do that? Like you don't know me from a bar of soap? Why would you want to give me a multimillion-dollar book deal, basically, because you're handing me a story that's worth millions. But also, you're like, You can publish whatever you want about me. But you've got to wait until after I die. So, it's like, am I holding on to this story for another decade? And she’s actually quite often very flippant about it like I'm old, everyone's dying. It's great that you think that I've got another two decades in me. But you can see that she's very conscious of her mortality. And she obviously has some intention of or some understanding that death’s come a knocking. But you really don't know more than that for most of the book.

22:12

Holly: Yeah, you kind of get an idea. I think as a non-stupid reader, you get an idea pretty quickly. But they do definitely spell it out after we learn about her daughter's death. So, her daughter died of breast cancer. And they note that that is hereditary. So, we are sort of introduced to the idea that Evelyn probably has breast cancer, which is quite kind of fitting that I think they even say this in the book that what made her, which was her gorgeous breasts, was her ultimate demise.

22:48

Harley: Yeah. I think actually, that's one of the big things that the difference between Malibu Rising and Evelyn Hugo is that I feel like Malibu Rising was like a car crash. Like you see it happening.

22:58

Holly: I mean, yeah, and the trolley.

23:01

Harley: Car literally crashes.

23:02

Holly: I mean, she does like a car crash, there was a crash in Hugo as well.

23:05

Harley: But the whole story, it even starts off talking about the fires in Malibu and how there was the fire that started at Nina's party like Nina Riva used to have these parties in one year, the fire that took Malibu started there. And so, it's always leading up to that, but it's also like all these car crash moments were really early on in the book. You get to know that one of the brothers is sleeping with his brother's ex, and you get to know that like, Nina is barely holding on to keeping her life together because she's been so busy being fine for everybody else that now that nobody's considered her and she's stuck there holding the bag for everybody else. And their little sister is has spent so much time being so protected by all of her siblings, that she's suffocating under it. So, there's all of these kinds of layers there where you can see all the things that are going to fall apart like you can see who's going to explode, you can see all that stuff and there’s definitely twists, like when the other daughter shows up. We are just like whoa, what the fuck? the whole time. So, say when Mick and their mom are getting together and it's like he's a perfect gentleman and they're gonna be the Hollywood it-couple and this, that, the other, real early on what kind of man he is, even her mom says the charmers are the ones you need to watch out for. It actually reminds me of something so my mum often would talk about how when I was becoming a teenager she'd gone to my grandmother and being like, Oh my god, what am I doing? She brings home some boy whose real rough. My grandma goes, You know what my mum always used to say? Don't worry about the ones who are rough around the edges because they're usually the ones that will show you their flaws up front and they're better human beings, worry about the boys with the white wall tires. Which is the ’50s way of saying worry about the ones who show up super sleek, the perfectly charming, perfectly lovely, you know? That literally is like now we're saying in my family is the like, Keep your eye on the boys with the white wall tires. And obviously, we're not actually specifically talking about the tires, but more about what they represent in kind of that ’50s era slick boy thing. And Mick clearly felt like, was one of those guys who spoke a good game and he was charming, and he dressed well, and he was handsome, and he knew it.

25:18

Holly: And you feel for him because you do get his backstory and the way his parents loved each other was very on-again, off-again, to the point that when they were on, they forgot he existed. When they were off, his mother was so catatonic that she forgot he existed. So, he was very much neglected.

25:39

Harley: And I think that's one of the things that makes her such a good writer is that he is the bad guy in that book. He's a neglectful father to the point of just obscenity. He's living this incredible high life, while his kids are struggling to keep a roof over their heads and all this kind of stuff. But he isn't like she doesn't present someone as the like, he's the bad guy. And it's very, very common, especially when you are falling into that like abandonment stuff and all that kind of thing for that character to be presented as wholly bad. I mean, even you could argue a character who's less developed, she doesn't give a lot of backstory for Don, because he's not exceptionally important to the story being told. But she gives enough that you understand that he's always lived under his parents’ shadow. And he's always obviously had some his parents are like Hollywood, people of the last generation. And so, he clearly is reactive, like he's always kind of been indulged. So, he doesn't necessarily have the emotional control. But he's also got the pressure of living up to the Adler name and all that kind of thing. And so, it doesn't make his actions right. It doesn't make him a good man. He's clearly not. But there is a level of empathy that you can have with him where it's like, okay, you're not a good person, but you are human. Nobody’s shittiness is created in a vacuum.

27:05

Holly: No. And we definitely we see that with Mick as well, the way his parents would forget he existed, and then scoop him up and spoil him and try to make up for it all. And he was from a very young age taught that that's just what love was.

27:20

Harley: I think also his mum, clearly from the backstory that you get, she had that obsessive quality where she was like, obsessively in love with his dad and then obsessively needy for him and then obsessively catatonic and then and so his understanding of what love is and when love is good is that obsessiveness. And the second, he is not just completely obsessed with something, it's because he's not in love anymore. And so instead of doing the work and working through that stuff, he's like, often the new obsession because that's true love.

27:52

Holly: So, he was never taught that there is gray, there is ups and there's downs, but most of the time, love is in that gray area.

27:58

Harley: And the reality is obsessive love is either the honeymoon stage, or it's unhealthy. There's not in between, for short, when you first meet someone, and you've really hit it off, and you've got that great chemistry and things like that, like you can't get them out of your brain, and you want to message them all the time. You want to talk to them all the time, all that stuff, that's fine. That's just your hormones are doing its thing. But you don't stay there. And if you do stay there, that has mental health issues.

28:26

Holly: That's codependency, it's not right.

28:29

Harley: If you're three months into a relationship, and you're just obsessed, cool, no stress, honeymoon stage. Obviously, that doesn't mean don't look out for red flags, like am I being loved bombed? But it's not uncommon. I think it's also worth recognizing, I mean, I know having ADHD, and one of the things that we can often run into is that like, hyper-fixated on the person, and that doesn't last. So, if you want a long-term relationship, who can't expect it to exist all the time, in that hyper fixation today, but you can have that early on. And it's something to be conscious of one to recognize that it won't last forever. So, you can't expect relationships to stay in that state of hyper-focus. But it is also worth recognizing, because it can be unhealthy because you can from the outside essentially love bomb, and then take away energy when you're no longer hyper-fixated. And that's not a healthy way of interacting with other people. So, it's about kind of managing those expectations and being realistic about what relationships are and who people are and things like that.

29:30

Holly: And that takes therapy. I need extensive therapy over here.

29:34

Harley: I guess I'm just gonna use the term still, but hyper-fixation means that he’ll meet a girl on tour and become obsessed. And so then be like, I don't love you anymore. Not to mention all just the casual sleeping around and stuff like Keith Richards, apparently his partner basically said to him, I get that what happens on tour is going to happen on tour. Regardless, my rules are I'll never have another relationship with them. And maybe wear a condom like, no STDs come home with you and don't have another relationship. So, I don't care if you're fucking somebody else. But I care if you've got another girlfriend.

30:13

Holly: Which I guess is Mick would have loved that arrangement. But his wife, she had never been with anyone before him, and I don't believe was with anyone after him or in between.

30:24

Harley: So, she fell in love with him and stayed in love with him and fell apart when he left her again and again.

30:30

Holly: Which is we also then see these repeating patterns when Nina's partner is away on tour and falls in love with her fellow tennis player. And then comes home decides to have this grand gesture, which was very Mick Riva, and have him grand gesture to win her back in front of all of her friends in front, this huge party scoops her up because she's felt pressured to saying yes, but then all of that falls apart.

30:59

Harley: Because he pulls her out, he looks like I'm announcing in front of everyone, we're getting back together, like get back together with me kind of thing. And so, she's in front of all these people. And it's that pressure, because when it's the two of them alone, she's prepared to say, I don't think so. And I think he senses that. So, he's like, you're always working to make everybody else feel comfortable. And you don't want to make all of the party guests feel uncomfortable because we're having a blue in front of them. So, I'll just pull you out there and you'll be so uncomfortable and busy making them comfortable that you'll go Yep, sure.

31:33

Holly: Because he knows that she's a people pleaser and a doormat, which changes at the end of this. But until then, yeah, she is, and he knows that she's going to say yes. Even though very shortly after that, you know within an hour or so that unravels and he changes his mind.

31:51

Harley: Well, he doesn't change his mind. So, Carrie Soto turns up screaming and threatening to burn his stuff on the front lawn and he's like, I don't understand where this come from. And she's like, You literally just called me an asshole and walked out like that's not how you break up with someone. How dare you just turn up here and act like you can just ignore like I can just be a blip on the radar? Fuck you. I was very clear with you about what this was like. I didn't try and be shady.

32:17

Holly: Yeah, you were the shady one. You're the one that went behind your partner's back with me.

32:21

Harley: And I was very clear that if you're going to leave her for me that you will like I'm not fucking around. I'm not being a mistress. That's not the deal here. And you decided to do that. And then the second things weren't working for you, you went, Oh screw this, I’ll go back to the ex. And Nina's pretty much like, You know what? She's right. Fuck you.

32:40

Holly: Yeah, yeah. But then towards the end, he does. He changes his mind again. It's like, I'm gonna go after her.

32:45

Harley: Well, it's not even that he changes his mind. He goes, I'm not leaving tonight without having a woman by my side. And I've lost Nina permanently so Carrie’s the easier mark to go after.

32:57

Holly: He just decides that that's the love of his life because that's…

33:00

Harley: The woman who can win over, he thinks.

33:02

Holly: Because he's probably mistaking the aggression and the fieriness of her for passion, which it's not. But we don't really know about his backstory as much.

33:15

Harley: No, just that he likes to win. So, he basically finishes the night not really going, any kind of redemption arc or any of that kind of stuff. But literally just going, I'm not going to lose. I'm a winner. I will win. And he's kind of in a lot of ways settling for Carrie, because he is settling for somebody that will allow him to feel like a winner. To be fair, we don't actually see them. He ends up in a car accident. They don't actually reconnect at that time. So, I don't know that he does end up back with her.

33:44

Holly: No, but they are. She is writing…

33:47

Harley: The Carrie Soto book. Okay, so they're so Carrie Soto is about to get her own book, but I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in the blurb that she's with somebody else. So, he's not mentioned in it.

33:57

Holly: I guess we'll find out when that comes out. So, there is a third book that's already out that also has some of these characters intertwined, which is also I don't think we mentioned it before. But Mick Riva, we mentioned that he was one of Evelyn's husbands, but I think we actually spelled out that he was Evelyn's third husband. So, we do see that little crossover there.

34:19

Harley: Yep. So, Taylor Jenkins Reid, has obviously set all of her books in an adjacent universe to ours I would say, but they are books that are obviously fictional, but set in a sort of real-world like our real world, when she populates them, she doesn't just forget about them in the next book and make a whole new universe that's based on our world kind of thing. So, there are little touchstones through each book that anchor them in the same world even though they're not necessarily overlapping stories like Evelyn's not important to the Malibu Rising.

34:57

Holly: In fact, she's not even named she's only mentioned as he’d married a whirlwind, one-night marriage with the biggest star in Hollywood. So, she’s not actually named in Malibu Rising.

35:06

Harley: Because it is that kind of story that is about that family and about abandonment and about the patterns that repeat themselves in families and all that kind of stuff. And he doesn't actually play a huge part in her book, because he was there to serve a purpose. So, he was one of the husbands, so he has to be named, and he has to have a section, but his section is the shortest.

35:27

Holly: Yeah, I mean, it's one chapter. And he's never really revisited.

35:31

Harley: Yeah. Because it was never, I think for either of them, particularly real. He wanted a root, she wanted to cover for her girlfriend. They got what they wanted.

35:40

Holly: And so, what's also interesting there is that I believe he was the one that impregnated Evelyn, so she slept with him, she was a ridiculously bad lay, so that he felt like he really didn't actually get what he came for.

35:54

Harley: I actually think as short of a chapter as it is, it is a really fascinating one, because she's essentially talking through and it's a really fascinating one probably, for us, especially being you know, I mean, we're showgirls, not escorts. The sex part is not necessarily part of what I always say, for me anyway, like, I've got friends who are escorts, and they're great at it, and good for them. But I love to flirt, I don't really care to deliver with everyone, like I'm very selective about who I want to have in my bed. But I would flirt with a lamppost if nobody else stood still. And so, the reason why I make a good stripper and a good showgirl, is because I can flirt to my heart's content, but there's that line there. And if they go, Come back to my hotel room with me. It's like, Dude, you were paying me to be nice to you. But there is a very clear boundary here. It's not my problem.

36:42

Holly: It's also a really safe way of doing that because you're out flirting with people and then shutting them down. That's quite dangerous for women.

36:49

Harley: I think it's that thing of like, you can essentially, in that environment, lead people on and when they do go, Oh, you were leading me on, you can be like, It's my fucking job. And they're kind of there is that point where they're like, Okay, fair enough, I walked backwards into that one. Whereas if you're out, I mean, a lot of the behavior that we engage in at work, if you were doing that without the context of what we do for work. It is flirting, it is leading someone on, because it's not just like a casual, I'm just being charming, because I like to be nice to people. And I certainly do that all the time. But the kind of flirting that we do when we're working is leading people on, it's just leading people on with very clear boundaries, like a neon sign over our heads being like not going anywhere, will flirt.

37:28

Holly: No, you can't have my phone number. And no, you definitely cannot come home with me.

37:33

Harley: Of course, you can have my phone number. It's 1-800-nice-try.

37:37

Holly: Can’t tell if you’ve used that line before. I guess getting back to…

37:42

Harley: Well sorry, I just thought because, I found it really interesting the way that she broke down and I'm sure you can, I can as well, break down kind of that hustle or break down that where you see like, this is a person who needs to be approached in this way or this is a thing that needs to do. And she very much, because she's only really with Mick to cover her and Celia nearly getting caught together. So, the whole time it's a hustle. So, it's like how I get him to… first thing I need to do is get him to agree to go to Vegas and make him think it's his idea.

38:13

Holly: Even before that he was selected. She picked him for a reason. Because she knew she could manipulate him. And then she very quickly had this plan and executed it flawlessly. He played right into his part very well. And he loved it just as much as she needed it. He loved it.

38:34

Harley: And I think there is that. I don't know if we talked about it on the thing we did privately. So essentially, this culminates in he wants to sleep with her. And she's like, I'm not that kind of girl. So, they get married. Because he's like, No, no, I'm in love with you. And again, it's that hyper-fixation thing that we see in Malibu Rising.

38:52

Holly: So, she says to him, I don't have sex outside of marriage. Now, aside from Celia, that's actually correct. Well, I don't know that she had any other…

39:04

Harley: She talks about the casting couch. So, Ari goes down on her. And it's certainly implied, but she's not afraid to sleep with people to get a movie deal. I mean, at any rate, she isn't saying it to him necessarily because it's true. Even if it is, she’s saying it because she wants him to be drunk and obsessed enough to be like, Nah, fuck it, babe. I'm in love. Let's get married and have that honeymoon night. She’s the seductress the whole time. But when she gets in there, she doesn't want him to have a great time and be like, No, I actually think I love you. And let's have a Tommy and Pam kind of relationship where as much as it's impulsive, it's real. And there's a real connection there.

39:42

Holly: There can't possibly be a real connection because she manufactured it from the moment, she picked him.

39:46

Harley: But she also doesn't want to perform enough to, or even if she actually enjoys in a casual way, sleeping with him. She doesn't want a relationship with him. So, she's deliberately really shit in bed. And so that he'll kind of go, Oh, this didn't live up to the expectation that I had. And I think the other reason she picked Mick is because he'd quite openly said he had a crush on her. So, he already idolized her, she already was never going to live up to the image that he had. So, it's kind of like, Yeah, I’m just doing that pedestal that you've put me on.

40:19

Holly: But he also wasn't as firmly rooted in Hollywood, like an acting career, because he was primarily a musician that it would ruin, he couldn't throw any black balls in. He was not able to ruin her reputation any more than the scandal would.

40:33

Harley: Yeah. But I do think like at the end of that, when he does play along and breaks up with her and all that kind of stuff, she's deliberately a bit hysterical and stuff about it, because she can see that she's playing into that crazy ex thing for him. So, it's kind of that like, To be fair, I've used you, but I'll give you the gift of letting you have this story that you like to tell. I just think it's a really interesting section.

40:57

Holly: Yeah, it's a very, very interesting section. And then I think the little icing on the cake was the fact that he did impregnate her, which led to the demise of her relationship with Celia again, but she did choose to abort it. Now, when we come to Malibu Rising, we have a bonus child that turns up. And there could have been an additional bonus child had Evelyn chosen not to abort.

41:24

Harley: Well, they actually talk about that in Malibu Rising. Mick is very much like I'm sorry, I slept with so many women. I actually like I'm happy to do a paternity test. Eventually, it's a bit more of a complicated conversation than that. But he's like, I'll do a paternity test. I owe you that much. But I don't remember your mother. So, I can't confirm or deny like, I can't actually even just look at this photo and be like, Yeah, I slept with her. That's a possibility. I literally slept with so many people that don't know. Which then all of these other kids go. How many siblings do we potentially have out there who just have no idea? And we've got no way of knowing because he doesn't know where he's put his dick.

42:01

Holly: He's a very interesting villain.

42:06

Harley: But it's interesting too, because he gives off very much like that almost like Mick Jagger kind of thing where it's that like he's such a frontman, that he's so charming all the time, and he can't turn it off. And I'm not saying Mick Jagger is a prick. Apparently, he is. But I don't know him from a bar of soap, so, whatever. But I think it's undeniable to say that those kind of rock stars and those kinds of frontmen have such a charisma about them, that they often become huge pricks because they can. Because when you're that charming, and again, it kind of comes back to what we do. Where people let you get away with a lot when they are charming.

42:45

Holly: Yeah, charming people get away with a lot. And I've definitely met people that can't turn it off. They've just been in the industry for so long. It is so ingrained that there's no longer that separation between the performance art of performing as a showgirl being this person, this persona that you've crafted, versus who you really are.

43:03

Harley: And I think that's one of the interesting things about the fact that she writes about celebrity is because I actually think, tradies also, but that's for another time. But celebrities and showgirls are very, very similar in that, you have to create a version of yourself that is true to who you are, if you want to do it for a long time, anyway. If you want to do it for three months, and then go back to, if you're backpacking, or whatever, by all means, put an accent, pretend you're someone completely different to who you are, go to town. But if you want to do it for a long time, it needs to come from a genuine place. So, you need to have that performance persona. That is all your good bits.

43:43

Holly: You just cherry-picked all of the best qualities of yourself, sprinkled on some charisma, whether it's authentic or not, you pull out of the bag.

43:50

Harley: But I think that that's the thing that's very similar for celebrities, is that they have to kind of cherry-pick all the best bits of themselves and present that to the world. And it's easy to accidentally overlap that where it's like, Where do I end, my persona begins? Because it's same, but different.

44:06

Holly: And Evelyn even said that towards the end of her interview, she did say that she crafted this persona, and she did what it took to keep that persona actually, in picking she even picked up a stage named and changing her surname.

44:20

Harley: I feel like Mick Riva is like that, you know, sometimes girls will come in and they absolutely clean up from the get-go because they just have such a natural ability to sell and such a natural ability to charm and all that kind of stuff. And I mean, they run into lots of other disasters because they don't necessarily have life skills. It's very unconscious what they're doing. But they are just so effortlessly charming, that it works really, really well for them. I think that they again, they can't turn it off. I think that's like Mick Riva.

44:48

Holly: And same with Don.

44:49

Harley: Whereas I think Evelyn probably is more like the way that you and I approach it where it is that like I’m conscious of what I'm doing. I know perfectly well It is happening here. And that doesn't mean that it is disingenuous to who I am or that I'm lying or any of that kind of stuff. But it's simply that it's a conscious choice for me to go. If I'm going to come and be the fantasy girl, because that's literally what I'm paid to do. I can't come in and be the fantasy girl and be like, so me and my boyfriend are having a fight, and I just had to take my dog to the vet, my mum's being a bitch. And instantly I have to come in and not have real problems.

45:26

Holly: Exactly. And then you also see, I think it also sort of ties into everyone's sexuality, because when she is her true, authentic self, it's when she's with Celia. And also, when she's with Harry. So, Harry was her producer for a long time. He was a gay man who was in love with another gay man who ended up marrying Celia first, and then Evelyn married Harry, so that they could essentially double date. And it just looked like two heterosexual couples living their life.

46:02

Harley: And there were rumors that they were swinging but, people just naturally assumed.

46:07

Holly: Because swinging is far less scandalous than being homosexuals.

46:11

Harley: Yeah. But also, like, people just assumed that they were sleeping with each other's husbands, rather than with each other.

46:17

Holly: Now, her marriage with Harry, I absolutely love that marriage. It was so beautiful. So, they built a family together. They loved each other. They're each other's best friends. They just had no sexual desire there. And I think that's just beautiful, they were platonic life partners, and they just they had a daughter, and they raised this daughter, and they went through so many heartbreaking moments together. But platonic.

46:47

Harley: And like, I honestly think that I would have been a great beard. I mean, arguably, there's still a lot of people who have beards and all that kind of stuff. And I still would be a great beard. But thankfully, times are changing. But I feel like I would be or would have been a great beard because I just like, I don't care. I mean, to be fair, I was raised in a family where like, my grandmother is as gay as they come on, with full steel-capped boots, kind of lesbian, like fighting in the streets for it. And so, because I've always had my grandmother's around, like my step-grandmother was at my birth, I've not ever known a world where they're not together. I don't care about that stuff in that sense, where it's just love is love. Or in fact, I do care about it, but I care about it in the other direction, I'd say. Like, I think it's really ridiculous that in so many places, it's still illegal period. But in so many places where it is legal to be gay, there are still so many families that are destroyed by, up until recently in Australia, technically, my grandmothers were housemates, they bought a house together. And so, if my grandmother had died, we as her family could challenge her will because she can't leave everything to her housemate. Meanwhile, if you're a heterosexual couple and you live together for like a year, you're considered de facto married. So fun fact, our audio cut out here. We're not done with this conversation. But we are going to pause here, and you can tune back in next week for part two.

48:23

Holly: In the meantime, links are in our show notes. And you can find us at bimbobookclub.com or on all your favorite social media platforms.

48:30

Harley: We also want to give a huge shout-out to the people who've already given us a review. We see you, we love you, and if you haven't yet reviewed and want to join the loving, it's never too late to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

48:43

Holly: Until next week. Bimbos out.

Lapvona: A Novel Episode Transcript

© Bimbo Media

 To download a copy of the transcript click here.

00:03

Holly: This is Bimbo Book Club with Holly.

00:12

Harley: And Harley. Okay, so this week we are doing Lapvona. Do you know how to say the author's name?

00:21

Holly: Ottessa Moshfegh? No, I don't know.

00:26

Harley: Cool, cool, cool. All the trigger warnings. I really don't know how else to sum it up. Basically, if there is anything that you ever need a trigger warning for, this is your trigger warning for that. I was gonna say, except a fear of spiders, but they eat insects at one point. So literally everything.

00:44

Holly: Yeah, so specifically trigger warning for animal cruelty, abuse of power, sadism, self-harm, sexual assault, and cannibalism.

00:51

Harley: And a little bit of like, I would say pedophilic tones.

00:54

Holly: Oh, definitely. Yeah. Forgot about the pedophilic tones. So, all the trigger warnings.

00:59

Harley: Like I said, if there's a thing that needs a trigger warning, consider this your trigger warning.

01:06

Holly: Yeah, no dogs die though. Lambs? Yes. Dogs? No.

01:10

Harley: Yeah, good point. One thing I can tell you about this book, because spoiler alert for the book ahead, but also spoiler alert for my opinion. I hated it.

01:22

Holly: Yeah, I have confused feelings about this book. I'm not sure if I hate it. Yeah, that's the end of that sentence.

01:33

Harley: You could elaborate.

01:34

Holly: I could elaborate. So, we decided to do this book, which is Lapvona, because we happen to be in a bookshop. And I've been targeted by this. It seems to be following me around. Every time I go into a bookshop, I see it. It's popping up on TikTok.

01:55

Harley: Well, she’s quite a well-known author. What's the other one she's written? I can't remember.

01:59

Holly: My Year of Solitude? She is quite an established author, already. And this was a highly anticipated book.

02:09

Harley: I haven't read anything else of hers. But from what I can tell from other people's feedback, it is a bit of a departure from how she normally writes. I'm not writing her off as an author. But I stand by my dislike.

02:26

Holly: I’m not sure how I feel about this book. But I will be reading more of her stuff. One thing that I did notice is that all the positive reviews referenced her other works. Whereas all the negative reviews just focused on how shit this one book was. That sort of says something, like the book should stand in and of itself and not have to reference other books.

02:44

Harley: So, her other book is My Year of Rest and Relaxation. I think I was combining it with 100 Years of Solitude, which is a completely different book. So, what did you maybe like about it?

03:03

Holly: This is a long silence. It's got all the elements of books that I do like. It's got sort of grotesque themes, disturbing scenes, it's got a real sense of claustrophobia to it, which are all things that I normally really enjoy in a book. I think this novel just kind of had an aimless plot. It just kind of didn't really progress. And it didn't leave you with a sense of satisfaction.

03:28

Harley: It felt like everything was like, How far can I push this? Rather than, Where's the plot? The point, I guess, more than the plot, because there is a plot, there's no point. Which can in of itself be a point that there is no point. But it felt like the author was just seeing how far she could push stuff. So, it was a little bit like the grotesque version of something like Saw. Do you remember in that Saw era, where every horror movie was like, Fuck a plot. Let's see how insane a thing we can get on-screen as possible. And it was just gore porn. Yeah, like it was the loosest plot as an excuse for them to just feature gore porn.

04:19

Holly: Yeah, absolutely. But even with Saw, when you look at them as a complete series, there is still some element of plot and reasoning.

04:30

Harley: But she does have a plot. She just doesn't, in my opinion, have a point. Or at least not a point that it justifies how consistently ridiculously grotesque she is. And there are some elements of that grotesqueness that I can get on board for really early on. It talks about Marek, who's the main character and has this kind of like weird relationship with religion and God and all that kind of stuff. Because, obviously, it's set in medieval times, and for anybody who doesn't know this, bedrooms and privacy, very modern thing, so he can hear his father essentially wanking. And that moment of climax and things like that he observes as a demon being expelled from his father and all that kind of stuff. I can get completely on board for that, because I can see a lot of places where you can take that and it is a little bit uncomfortable, a little bit disturbing, and it does have that grotesqueness to it. But it doesn't, at that point in the novel, feel like grotesqueness for the sake of grotesqueness and then 20 pages further in, you’re like, Okay, so we're just doing this.

05:39

Holly: Yeah, there are a lot of very quick downhill moments for morality, particularly with this whole town, no one eats meat. The whole town, no one eats meat. Next thing you know, cannibals.

05:51

Harley: Zero to 100. Real quick.

05:53

Holly: Yeah, I will say I do like the way that she has fleshed out the characters in such a way that they are well-thought-out characters, but they're still so shallow. It's really hard to explain if you haven't read the book. They are complex characters in their world and in their life. But they are extremely shallow people.

06:15

Harley: I think, too, she's done a good job of, I mean, really, the story follows the town. So as much as like Marek is arguably the main character. Really, the story is not about any one person, it's about the town, he just happens to be the person that crosses the barrier from townsperson to that ruling class, in becoming the lord’s son.

06:40

Holly: Yeah, and it does follow a lot of other characters, like you say, but I think we only ever have internal monologue from Marek. And that's it.

06:51

Harley: I think a little bit for Jude. Because remember, we're down in the town following Jude. Yeah, during the drought, I think we might do a very brief stint with Ina. And actually, the father who becomes the new Ina of the random villages. I can't remember his name because he's only really briefly in it. But he almost dies in the drought. And then he loses some other I think, so he doesn't have sight and he loses hearing, or something like that. But he goes off into the forest. And they're the two villages that get invited up for the feast. I do think there's some elements of like, you know, the role of religion and all that kind of stuff in terms of placating people and you know, what people will ignore in the face of a hope of something better being out there or there being some master plan.

07:43

Holly: Yeah. And I think we see both sides of this. So, we see that the townspeople with their seemingly unwavering face, to appoint, but then we see Lord Villiam, who is essentially declaring himself the ruler of everything and blocking the water and taking control. And he's got his priest, who has declared himself a priest and is not a man of God, who is just sort of, like floundering around.

08:16

Harley: I think t ties into some of that very old-fashioned stuff. I mean, I think, not as old fashioned as we'd like it to believe that it is if you look at people who are successful and religious, but that thing of like, kings and queens and lords and all that kind of thing being like, ‘I'm here because of my God-given right.’ I mean, you see it in things like the Russian revolution and things like that, how long that family ignored the peasants’ wishes, because ‘I'm here, it's my God-given right to be here. Why would I not be here? I'm God's chosen.’ Instead of being like, hey, people are starving and there's like a butt ton of them. So, if they were to revolt, that's gonna end really badly for me, which they found out the hard way. Unless you believe the not-Disney, but Disney bought it, so now it is the Disney version of events. I did read in a review that some people were talking about that it was like a modern reflection on the modern state of like the pandemic and stuff, which I thought was a bit of a reach.

09:12

Holly: Well, I feel like she wrote it in lockdown, and being a COVID novel. I think anyone is going to reach for that.

09:20

Harley: Do you think she deliberately had those parallels? Because I gotta say that feels to me like some I teach a writing class bullshit. Real like reading into stuff well beyond what the author intended. But the author is happy to be like, Yeah, deeply meaningful. That's what I was going for.

09:40

Holly: I mean, I can sort of see it I don't feel like it was the intention. I think it's how I mentioned before how the whole town feels very claustrophobic. I think that's like that claustrophobic feeling is potentially what they're getting at with this like COVID reflection because we did feel very stuck, we felt stuck in our homes just like everyone in this town feels very stuck in this town.

09:59

Harley: You have to remember we're talking from a very… we were very locked down. So, we had the delightful honor of being in the most lockdown city in the world.

10:12

Holly: I think it was the strictest lockdown for the longest. I think there were other cities that had stricter lockdowns, but ours was longest.

10:20

Harley: Strict and for a long period. I think we had the most number of overall days in lockdown, which was lots. So, it was not necessarily the most consecutive because we did have little windows of time, and they let us out for two whole minutes and they went, Ha! Joke's on you, lockdown.

10:34

Holly: Yeah, you liked your freedom. Haha, now you have five kilometers from your registered address and no more.

10:40

Harley: And you better have a good reason to be in those five kilometers.

10:44

Holly: We're timing you. Half an hour. I'm sorry, it was 60 minutes, sorry, 60 minutes. All right, outside measure. Imagine if we'd started this podcast in lockdown. Imagine how far along we'd be.

10:54

Harley: Well, we wouldn't have had anything else to do. All those nights and weekends where we have to work, but we'd be not working.

11:02

Holly: Yeah, so coming from a place of Melbourne lockdown and feeling extremely claustrophobic in my own home. I definitely felt a sense of claustrophobia with the town that she had created. And that I don't know if that it would extend to the rest of the world. But I wonder if that's what they're drawing parallels from with the COVID-ness.

11:21

Harley: I think actually, a lot of it was more to do with. I mean, there was very much that thing of, I know that I've ranted to everybody who's been within 100 meters of me, about the like, We're all in this together, that our premier kept saying where I have never wanted to stab him more. It's a long line of people, it's fine. I'm not kidding, that man, I would not be walking down the street if I was him. The amount of people I know that hate his guts. I'm like, I want to stab you. But I won't. Like obviously for us. We had our premier constantly being like, We're all in this together. While a great deal of our city is on like, you know, we've got so many people in hospitality, we as performers require essentially people to be able to go out and party for us to do our jobs. So, every single time a lockdown was announced in Victoria, I watched 1000s of dollars of booked jobs just disappear overnight. Because even if it wasn't in the official lockdown time period, often people were canceling because they're like, let's be honest, a four-week lockdown is going to be a 16-week lockdown. So, the eight-week thing will just keep slipping.

12:26

Holly: Yeah. And the threat of having to isolate for two weeks, it was not worth having an event, like say a buck’s party two weeks before a wedding in case.

12:34

Harley: You didn't even know if your wedding could go ahead, so the buck’s party was the least of your worries. But on a global scale. I know there were a lot of people who complained about like, celebrities being like, oh, like we're all stuck in our homes together from their like multimillion dollar mansions and things like that. And I think that's and I'm putting words in people's mouths here because it is based on other people's feelings about the book. I think that a lot of people actually got that like, parallel between the like the wealthy and the poor and the like the poor people are suffering in the wealthy are like, Yeah, bummer.

13:08

Holly: Absolutely. And the thing about the wealthy in this book is that they are completely controlling it. And it's not even implied. It's straight up. Lord Villiam is like, Nah, let's just stop the water.

13:19

Harley: Yeah, I have pleasure gardens. And I want to go for a swim. So, we're going to redirect that, and you guys can suck it.

13:26

Holly: Don't care if you die. So, let's talk about Lord Villiam. He is a very interesting character. So, his son is accidentally murdered. I mean, it wasn't really on purpose. But it’s kind of also wasn't not on purpose. It wasn't really meant to kill him. But it also kind of was.

13:51

Harley: I think it was so Marek, the main character is 13 at the start of the book, and I think what it was supposed to be, was like that teenage boy, that young teenage boy thing of like, pulling something apart to see how it works. So, I think that like shoving him off the edge or like watching him fall or whatever, I think was supposed to be like that. Almost like, I wonder what will happen, pulling the wings off a bug or whatever. And they're not really realizing that there were consequences to his actions until…

14:23

Holly: Looking down and seeing an eyeball hanging out. So, his son has died. Marek’s gone home to his father and us like, Oops, because at this point, like his father is…

14:36

Harley: I think it's a little bit more complicated than that. So, it's that religious fervor that Marek has, he's like, I'm gonna confess to my father and be punished in a state of religious purity for my confession and punishment and all that stuff. So, he goes home and tells his father who instead of just beating him up, like he normally does, he drags him off to Lord Villiam expecting that essentially the eye for an eye will be that Lord Villiam says, Well, he killed my son, so I'll kill him.

15:08

Holly: Which is what Marek wants.

15:11

Harley: Yeah, so everybody's on board for this. Jude is like, Let's do this like I'm free to the burden of my wayward son. Marek is like, I can die in a state of religious ecstasy because I have confessed and been punished for my sins. Jacob's mother is like, This kid killed my kid, so die, bastard die. Lord Villiam, on the other hand is like, All I need is a son. So, he'll do. You take the dead body, and I'll take the living kid, and we're good to go.

15:43

Holly: Yeah. And so, he also quite likes comedy. He likes to be entertained. And the fact that Marek is a little bit disabled, he finds it amusing that this kid is a little bit bent out of shape. Which is, this man is just, yeah, he doesn't get better as he doesn't get any better. Doesn't get any better.

16:05

Harley: There really are no characters with redeeming qualities in this book. To be clear if you're looking for a likable character, there isn’t one.

16:12

Holly: No, there is not a single likable character in this entire book. Not a single one.

16:17

Harley: I think the closest would be Luca, who's Jacobs's real father, and he's just a soldier working for Lord Villiam who's sleeping with his wife and gets knocked off later in the thing. And he's not a good person. He's just not actively too likable.

16:32

Holly: I just remembered another trigger warning, incest. Marek is the product of his mother being raped by her brother. And then Jude finds out when she's already pregnant, and then holds her captive. There's another one false imprisonment.

16:52

Harley: Sexual assault, right? False imprisonment. All the triggers. So, one of the things that's kind of mostly told through backstories, and things like that, is that Marek's mother, Agata was initially kind of sounds like a like, oh, yeah, they were just married. And Jude loved her and this, that, the other, but turns out Jude’s way of saying I love you is to chain you to the fireplace, so you can't escape. We have to have her, right? And then when she finally gives birth to Marek, he's like, I can't believe that she would have tried to abort this child that has come from one of her many sexual assaults from someone or other. Like, why wouldn't she want to keep it? Well, he's like, Oh, look, I have a son. She runs away. And he pretends she's died honorably and things like that. But actually, she's just gotten the fuck away from him as fast as she humanly can with her one opportunity.

17:48

Holly: Yeah, so she's an interesting character, because we assume that she's dead and gone for a good portion of the novel. And then surprise, she comes back. So, she never actually left. No, she was in the nunnery the whole time, she escapes.

18:06

Harley: So, she escapes from Jude. And there's this kind of thing, a few characters that spend time in the forest around them, most of them become holy. She doesn't become holy. But she does manage to get to the nunnery and become a nun, protected by the sisters there. However, there is some parallel too, because by the end of the novel, so she ends up in her nun state at the Lord's manor, and Lord Villiam believes that she's a virgin nun. Everybody else is like, Hey, isn't that Marek’s mother, but we all believe our fantasies, I guess. So, Lord Villiam, when his wife runs away, dies.

18:49

Holly: Disappears into the night on a horse that returns with no eyes is the official line.

18:54

Harley: Sadly, we know where the horse's eyes go. Once she's out of the picture, Lord Villiam essentially marries this nun in order to essentially birth the second coming of Christ. So, there is some level of her becoming holy through her escape from Lapvona, even though at no point does she consider herself holy or to have had a revelation or any of that kind of stuff.

19:23

Holly: Yeah, this comes back to Villiam deciding that he's holy and Father Barnabas deciding that he is a man of God and then deciding that this child is the second coming.

19:37

Harley: Barnabas isn’t on board for this, is he? Because he's like, Oh, God, if we're selling him as the second coming, real priests will come here, and they'll find me out.

19:45

Holly: Yeah. But I mean, in the way that he's just decided that he is holy. Lord Villiam has decided he’s holy and then Lord Villiam has decided that Agata is holy, because she is a nun who is pregnant and mute, isn't she? Did they take her tongue?

20:05

Harley: Yeah, I think so somebody ripped out her tongue. Honestly, there's so many grotesque things that happen that it all kind of blurs into one big horror show.

20:14

Holly: So, the reason why she is a pregnant nun is because, surprise, surprise, she was raped again by Jude. So, Jude finds her pregnant with her brother's child, decides to keep that child and Agata then escapes and is gone. Comes back, finds her, rapes her, impregnates her. And then she's, I guess, stolen and kept by Lord Villiam this time.

20:45

Harley: So, there is also a couple of layers of for like role taking, so Marek takes the role of Jacob, Marek kills Jacob, takes on his role of being the Lord’s son, but then arguably this new baby takes on his role in that he's, I guess, his son, but also Jude’s son for real this time. And Marek has always been the center of attention for a lot of these characters who are no longer interested in him.

21:18

Holly: And it all feels like it should mean something, like Agata not having Jude’s biological child and then coming back and then having Jude's biological child, but then being Lord Villiam’s property and then it feels like it should mean something. And maybe I'm just missing the point. It seems to be going around in circles, and the whole thing just feels so pointless. And that might be the point. And maybe that's why people think it's a COVID novel, because it's so fucking pointless, like lockdown.

21:51

Harley: So, I mean, she's that argument that like, we're all looking for a point, and there is no point, and I can get on board for that. But the thing for me is that there's kind of a, like a dumbing down of people almost or like a ridiculousness of it, where it feels like the way that in like medieval history, an author would talk about whoever their enemy was. So, it's like, they're barbarians, and they're stupid. And they’re ugly.

22:19

Holly: It's very stereotypical.

22:21

Harley: In a way that just feels kind of demeaning, and also feels like, are you trying to make us feel better? Like we've evolved somehow? Because we haven't. And if you go back and read things like the Greek stances on women's roles in society, we haven't really evolved all that much. We just are allowed to vote now we're considered actual citizens, and not slightly better than a cow.

22:45

Holly: But we get a bank account. Why are you complaining?

22:47

Harley: But the kind of the role of women in that stuff has not evolved since ancient Greek times. And then if we're talking medieval Europe, that's after that time period. So, to act like, they're the stupid sheep. And we're so like, in comparison to where we are now is like, we haven't evolved that much.

23:07

Holly: I think that's what I meant earlier, when I was talking about how the characters were complex, but shallow. It feels like she hasn't really done very much research into the time period that she's writing and not that she's really decided or stated that there's a particular time period, nor has she stated that there's a particular location, we just assume that Lapvona is a location somewhere in Europe.

23:29

Harley: Yeah, I mean, it's implied heavily enough that I feel like everybody talks about it being vaguely European.

23:34

Holly: Yeah. But I don't even know that it's really, but it doesn't feel like there's any research that's gone into it, she's just kind of gone, That's a stereotype that'll do.

23:42

Harley: And arguably, on that point, I actually took me quite a while to realize it wasn't until I was like, I don't even know what I'm going to say about it because we read it for the podcast and I finished it because we were doing this episode, but honestly got to the end of it and was like I genuinely don't know what to even say about this, which is why I looked up some stuff about this book. And I do like to kind of see what other people think and kind of see what I've maybe not considered and all that stuff in general about books but for this one in particular I was like, I can't just say, I hate it I'm done, and then leave Holly to try and talk for an hour by herself because I've rage quit.

24:19

Holly: It wouldn't be a very long podcast.

24:21

Harley: But anyway, so I went and like, looked at what other people said and all that kind of stuff. And that's when I realized that it was written by a woman, because up until that point, I actually thought it was written by a man and I thought that in large part because of

24:36

Holly: The breastfeeding scene.

24:37

Harley: Yeah, Ina and the way that Ina was described. So, Ina is the like the town witch and the town midwife, basically. So, she's a woman who like, disappears into the forest, becomes like holy or mad depending on what stance you take, but like, holy in a pagan sense. And she magically develops breast milk in order to nourish herself so she represents like, and I get this part where she represents like nourishment and that kind of practical…

25:07

Holly: She doesn't just represent it, she comes back to the town, and she literally nourishes all of the town's babies.

25:12

Harley: Which is on par with that like old religious thing where instead of being a like metaphorical thing, it's a literal thing, just in case people don't understand the metaphor. It's like she literally is nourishing you. But the way that that whole thing is described, I was like, Do you not understand how boobs work and how bodies work?

25:34

Holly: And how babies latch?

25:35

Harley: Yeah, 100% Like, I actually think I sent Holly a rant about this.

25:40

Holly: Oh, no, I was driving, and you were sitting in my passenger seat and had a rant.

25:43

Harley: One way or another. Holly had to listen to me rant about this.

25:46

Holly: And now I get to listen again.

25:49

Harley: And so, to you. So, I don't know how to say this any other way, I can lick my own nipple.

25:58

Holly: I cannot.

26:02

Harley: Which I would argue, demonstrates boobs full of milk better than my boobs. But that's the thing is that this is why I was like, What the fuck, you've never been around like a breastfeeding woman. Because when they're actively full of milk boobs are really hard. Like they're quite firm because they're full of stuff. Whereas my boobs are like breast tissue and fat so they they'll move around pretty easy. And that combined with volume makes it you know, like they are relatively pliable, and they will move around a fair bit.

26:34

Holly: Yeah, just for context. In case no one's seen our Instagram or anything. What size are your breasts there, dear Harley?

26:41

Harley: I'm pretty close to putting this as a FAQ on my Instagram. I am a 6G, which means I have a small back and giant tits and they're all homegrown.

26:50

Holly: G for ginormous. Sorry, I'm ranting.

26:56

Harley: Just from a purely like, mechanical sense. I'm not gonna say that nobody can like, lick their own boob or like, latch. I don't know that I could latch on my own nipple. I'm not going to try it. I appreciate that you tried to get to your nipple. I can definitely lick my nipple, but I don't think I could latch which Agata does to herself. But also again, I have never had children. My boobs are just like breast tissue and fat. So, they're pretty pliable. If I was to have children, and I was actively breastfeeding and all they were filling with milk, should I breastfeed, they would become really firm, I don't have that level of movement that I have right now. Which is where I was like silicone is probably a better example of because they are firmer in the way that a full breast is. So Agata essentially latches onto her own boob feeds herself, and then feeds the rest of the town. Just from a mechanical standpoint, you've lost me right there. And then we go to the next level where Marek is 13, but he is described as being the size of an eight-year-old so I'm gonna go with eight-year-old has is, so she's got like magical boobs that just are consistently forever full of milk. Marek never outgrows breastfeeding. So, he goes to see her at 13, again, eight-year-old size.

28:17

Holly: And there is one point where she no longer produces milk, but she's still allowing the men of the town to latch and suckle for comfort. But this is what I believe when he is 13.

28:28

Harley: Yeah, actually, I don't think he's getting any milk from it anyway, not actually the point.

28:32

Holly: I think that I know the point you're about to make. I think it almost makes it worse but carry on.

28:38

Harley: No, I think you're talking about the next bit. So, she describes it as but like he sucked her nipple into the back of his throat. And again, from a mechanical standpoint, a baby can do that because they have little tiny mouths, they’re miniature. An eight-year-old? No, like what fucking magical, like I get that nipples change shape and elongate and all that kind of stuff.

28:59

Holly: And he's got a whole mouth full of teeth now and a soft palate that's completely, like…

29:05

Harley: It's not designed for like, I'm not saying he couldn't latch on, and he couldn't suckle because let's be honest, grown men suckle on boobs all the time, for a multitude of reasons, including comfort. So, again, whatever. But just on a purely mechanical sense, she cannot latch on to her own boob and an eight-year-old sized person, I do not believe that they can get a nipple down their throat.

29:26

Holly: I think that is a pretty fair assessment.

29:29

Harley: So, there is a point where Ina has allowed Marek who again, is only 13 but looks 8 to essentially go down on her so they describe it as because it's told from Marek's perspective as him suckling but suckling from somewhere else. But essentially, she's allowed him to go down on her for her own pleasure. And then she always denies him access again, because it's wrong. But nonetheless, she's gotten off with the body of an eight-year-old?

30:03

Holly: Yeah, it's a very bizarre scene, like everything about her is very bizarre. So, she has no sight. She has the horse's eyes.

30:12

Harley: That's where the horse's eyes go.

30:17

Holly: But the more she breastfeeds, she does get her sight back when she breastfeeds. When she expels milk, she does get some of her sight back, she stops being able to breastfeed, lose her sight again, until she steals the horse's eyes. And then because they're too big, sometimes her eye sockets get sore, and she just like, pops them out for a break. But there's also that other quality that which she does about her when she is breastfeeding, and is I believe it's when she's consuming the human flesh as well. She's getting younger.

30:47

Harley: That was one of the interesting things that I wanted to bring up to you. At the end of the book. So, she's cloistered right at the end of the book with Agata and then possibly the second coming baby. Yeah, probably should have looked up that name, too. To be honest. There are so many characters here. I literally have a list of names in front of me. She gets younger and younger. Is she feeding on them, or is she feeding them? What's the deal there?

31:08

Holly: Because I have no idea.

31:09

Harley: It’s like she gets younger from the cannibalism and her sight back from the breastfeeding. She is described as ageless. So, she's like, super old, but it's not clear if she's like 50 in a time period where nobody makes it to 35. Or she's like 200.

31:26

Holly: So, when Jude collects the dead body that has literally just fallen over and died. Yeah. And he collects the dead body…

31:37

Harley:

Wait that dog dies.

31:40

Holly:

No! The dog does die. Well, it's implied that the dog dies.

31:43

Harley: That dog definitely dies.

31:45

Holly: I'm sorry, I take that back. The dog does die. All the trigger warnings. All the trigger warnings. So, Jude witnesses this guy keel over dead, collects him, takes him to Ina.

31:57

Harley: But also, physically collects him because he's like, these villagers are starving. They're gonna fall upon him and end up cannibals and like, I can’t allow that.

32:05

Holly: But then goes ahead and does it anyway. So, when he brings the body to Ina, she is very frail and very old and, in a bed.

32:15

Harley: And she's the one who's like, Feed me the fucking human. And he's like, No, it's unholy. I could never. And she's like, Feed me the fucking human.

32:22

Holly: And then it turns out he fucking froths it. So, he just keeps eating.

32:27

Harley: So, he's like, No, no, no, no, no. And then when he eventually gives in, because surprise, he gives in. Turns out he quite likes meat. So, he's not a vegetarian anymore. Won’t eat lamb, will eat human.

32:39

Holly: Yeah, I mean, even the townspeople. So, he has a flock, and the townspeople are dying and starving and he refuses to give his flock, which are also dying and starving, to the townspeople.

32:52

Harley: I think he won't let them eat them even after they've just died. Yeah, so like he's so against the eating of meat that he won't even allow them to eat the already dead bodies.

33:04

Holly: Which is a delusional religious element.

33:08

Harley: But, again, there's something about gender there. Because the ram, he doesn't care about he lets them kill the ram.

33:14

Holly: Yeah, I agree. He doesn't really care about it. But I don't know that he really had a choice like they were going to take the ram.

33:21

Harley: But consistently throughout the thing. He's like, I felt bad but whatever. Like, he doesn't really give a shit about it, its only purpose is to give him more lambs.

33:29

Holly: Yes. And I believe he gets very upset after he lets the ram mate. Which, I mean, kind of makes sense with Agata being upset that she came to him pregnant. Or he stole, her found her and she was already pregnant, kept her.

33:48

Harley: By came to him, Holly means he found her in the forest and kidnapped her.

33:51

Holly: Yeah, so I kind of understand that but then he goes ahead and does that to her anyway. So, he goes ahead and rapes her. Is there a meaning there? Is there a transition?

34:03

Harley: This is the thing is, it feels like there should be some kind of transcended meaning. And then really, it kind of turns out just that people suck is the meaning. Yeah, I don't know. This is why I can rant for so long about the mechanics of breastfeeding is because it really feels like there's no delivery and maybe I'm just stupid, but I'm pretty sure it's not that I'm stupid. I'm pretty sure it's that is a novel that is written to be grotesque and esoteric without any real point or like, concept that the author is deeply attached to. And in some way, I feel like Fight Club, the book, is almost a comparison in terms of, it's not so eloquently written, per se, but every single piece of that is focused on the point that the author, Chuck Palahniuk, has which is that sense of ennui, or that like, not living up to potential of being trapped like a rat in a cage to make sure that I have to link to songs as well as books in this despite all my rage and all that jazz.

35:16

Holly: I see what you did there. You're real funny. Yeah, I think across both of those novels, they're very unlikable characters, and they're morally gray characters. That's it. That's the end of the point.

35:28

Harley: But I think that Fight Club executes it well, because instead of being focused on just being as disgusting as possible, everything serves the purpose of his actual message. And his actual message is to communicate that feeling of nothing really matters in this modern thing. And that sense of like, just wanting to, I do, one of the biggest criticisms I have for Fight Club, in any of its formats, is that I think that it seems to be under the impression that it's a distinctly masculine feeling of wanting to just like blow everything up and say, Fuck society. And I don't think that that is exclusively masculine, but I do appreciate that it was made by a bunch of men from like, you know, Chuck Palahniuk is obviously a man, but also when the movie was made. So, they're talking from their perspective. But I do think that everything in that is designed to serve the purpose of communicating that overall message. And there are some elements in there that are just like, holy fuck really you went that far. Obviously, everybody in this day and age with the movie knows the like, using lipo fat as a catalyst for soap. Yeah, but I mean, there's also things like Marla in the movie being like, ‘I haven't been fucked like that since grade school,’ which is primary school for everybody who's not American.

36:47

Holly: But there's layers and there's purpose, whereas this feels like there's not necessarily layers or purpose.

36:55

Harley: I can go without the layers, but I need purpose. And if the purpose is just to be like, Look how gross I can be, or I saw a few things that were like women authors aren't allowed to be grotesque. And I'm like, I can get on board for women authors being grotesque. If there's a point, right?

37:13

Holly: I've definitely read some really beautifully grotesque things from women, and they are fucking disturbing, way more like they leave you with a deep sense of hollowness.

37:22

Harley: Actually, you know who I think would be a really good example of, like, women can write grotesque things is have you ever read any Toni Morrison? So, she's got a whole bunch of novels I'm sure I've talked to about Beloved. Yeah, so the plot of Beloved, in its loosest sense. So, I originally read it, because I had a literature teacher who was like, Don't read this book, dear children, she murdered her baby, it's horrifying. And I was like, There's got to be more context than that.

37:51

Holly: Naturally, as soon as someone tells you not to do something, you're gonna do it?

37:55

Harley: Well, yeah, that's my ADHD kicking in.

37:57

Holly: Just adding it to my wanted list on Good Reads. Oh, it’s a trilogy. Well, stay tuned, because that one just got added to the to podcast list.

38:08

Harley: Even if we don't do that one, we should do Toni Morrison. So, like, I was like, I'm reading this book, and she tried to deny me and essentially, my mother's stance on this was, nobody will ever forbid any child of mine from reading anything by Toni Morrison. So I read Beloved, and she does murder her baby. But there is a lot more context. And a lot of the context is about her being an escaped slave and how often the overseers and the white owners, the farm wish she was owned, would drain the milk dry, so babies would starve anyway, and assault babies and children and things like that. So, she's essentially murdered her child to protect her child from the horrors of the reality that she's living in. And in the rest of the book, she's haunted by this. So, a lot of it's told that from the perspective of her younger child who has to live with the ghost of their older sibling, who didn't make it past infancy. And it's more complicated than that. I am massively oversimplifying this story.

39:08

Holly: But it's not dissimilar to how people are like don't read Lolita. He's just a pedophile. And yes, very problematic. Yes, he is a pedophile. But the novel is about so much more than that grooming, it's about the aftermath and all of that as well. You can’t paint it with one brush.

39:28

Harley: That grotesqueness serves a purpose. And the purpose for Beloved, is the realities of the horrors of slavery in America. And that time period and the choices that people had to make that were just inhumane because they were in an inhumane situation, and it's very similar to I mean, I think that you if you look at something like say, the Pol Pot regime in Cambodia, one of the things that they'd routinely do is make parents choose between their children, like one of these kids is going to die and you get new have to choose which one, which is a horrifying thing to even conceptualize. But it was a reality for a lot of people during that regime, and it was one of many horrors that they inflicted on people in Cambodia. Well, the citizens of Cambodia, I mean, if you look at, say, the Japanese soldiers in Korea and the like, all of the assaults that happen there, and all that kind of stuff, story set in those time periods are stories about those things, doing a disservice by not being grotesque, because you have to, if you're going to communicate a real story about that time period, it's about those situations. It's difficult to do with any degree of sincerity unless you do lean into that horror of that kind of stuff. And I think, Toni Morrison is an incredible example of a female author who has done an incredible job of really making you like you read, not just that book, but a few of her books. In fact, I think every book I've ever read, but that's a really great example of one where you're as you're reading it, you're like, I want to look away, but I can't. I love books like that. So yeah, it is this really kind of like, horrifying thing. And it's just, it's disgusting. Because it's disgusting that anybody has ever been put in those kinds of situations. It's disgusting, that things like that still happen to maybe in different places in different ways, arguably, in different places, to be honest, but it is like I don't think that we've evolved or any of that kind of stuff. But yeah, that kind of you want to look away, but you can't, because it is a reality. And because it serves a purpose within the book, whereas I found with this, in some ways, I think it does a disservice to people who've actually gone through things that are horrifying. And like pick a trigger warning, any trigger warning from the book, really because lord knows she ticked them all. And because it doesn't serve a purpose. I feel like there is a level of mockery to people who have had to experience that grotesqueness, whereas I think when it serves a purpose, I'm on board. I don't know if that makes sense. I feel like I said a lot of words, didn’t really get to my point.

42:06

Holly: But neither did the book.

42:11

Harley: Or express it.

42:15

Holly: I think you are so right there because the book doesn't feel resolved. Things happen. It's got an ending, but it doesn't feel resolved. And maybe it doesn't feel resolved because there was nothing to resolve. Because there was no point, there was no plot, there was no anything. And so that's why we left with I was left with quite a large book hangover, and not a good one. It's a confusing one, I have many feelings.

42:36

Harley: I think too, they almost feel independent of each other, in that it feels like the gross stuff was in there just for the sake of seeing how far she could push, how disgusting she could be, and all that kind of stuff. And then on the other side of it, it felt like it was pointless, because the point was that there is no point. And it kind of feels like you've got to pick a lane there.

43:00

Holly: We also don't have a point of reference, because we don't know what her other books are about. We know that they are also quite disturbing, grotesque. But do they have more fleshed-out plots?

43:13

Harley: Yeah, I don't know. I can't comment having not read any of it.

43:18

Holly: No, we can't. But then I guess this takes us back to what I was saying earlier is all the reviews that I've come across, positive ones, reference her other works.

43:26

Harley: I can see how she has the potential to be somebody who, so I'd argue, I know you mentioned I think before we started recording, the grape scene. I would argue that that feels like it has a point within it. In that it showed how Lord Villiam was just trying to push boundaries as far as he could in order to be entertained. But also, because we do see a little bit from Lisbeth’s perspective, of the maid’s perspective, that there's a level of like, none of it matters because he's such a fucking idiot that like humiliating yourself in front of somebody like him is not really humiliation because he's literally so pointless.

44:04

Holly: Yeah, I believe he makes a comment about Oh, don't spit in my whatever. And her internal monologue is like, Too late, I started that years ago. And it's just all of the staff, particularly her, but all of the staff despise him. And they're laughing at him.

44:23

Harley: But it kind of goes beyond despising him. It's like they are literally indifferent to him. They don't even care enough to truly despise him. It's almost like a level of pity.

44:32

Holly: Oh, absolutely. And they know, they know that he's the one that's causing all the issues down in the town, who's blocking the water and charging people too much.

44:44

Harley: So, there’s three to four lots of people. So, there's the nobility, there's the town's folk, there's the servants, and arguably there's the guards and bandits, who are in cahoots. So, Lisbeth belongs to the servant class. So, she's separate to the sufferings of the town, but she's also separate to the nobility. And they're very, very much are separate. So, they like, eat different things and they separate to or there's some overlap with the town, so they don't eat any meat or any of that kind of stuff. But they, I mean, obviously they've got the comforts of still being in the Lord's manor or whatever, when he's diverting all the water and resources to himself and letting the town basically die off.

45:25

Holly: But there is a cost to that. And that is that when they are called on to entertain Lord Villiam, they have to thus like what we see with this grape scene.

45:35

Harley: So, the scene for anybody who hasn't read the book and has decided to side with me just on this alone and not going to read it, the grape scene essentially, he's like throwing grapes for her to catch like a dog, and then decides that he needs to up at a level. So, he sticks a grape in Marek’s ass and then makes her catch that one and eat that one.

45:54

Holly: Yeah, in her mouth, just to be specific.

45:58

Harley: And it is a bit of a like, I feel like, for anybody listening at home is like, Whoa, what the fuck that came out of nowhere. Within the context of the book, it's—

46:05

Holly: It’s actually not that bad. It's not the worst thing.

46:09

Harley: Like it’s almost a non-event.

46:10

Holly: As soon as the scene starts, you know, it's going to escalate. You know where it's going.

46:14

Harley: If anything, I feel like it didn't escalate as much as I expected.

46:18

Holly: I actually thought was gonna be worse.

46:21

Harley: Which is why it's a bit of a like, we're like, oh, yeah, whatever. It's not because we endorsed that particular kind of thing. But because in the context of the book, it really is nothing. But also, again, I feel like it has a purpose, which is to express both the way that Lord Villiam is and to express that as far as he pushes people, they’re so indifferent to him, in his opinion, that even something that gross is not a thing, because his opinion doesn't matter. Nobody cares about him.

46:55

Holly: And they're like, oh, well, I have to eat one ass grape, but the amount of shit that I've done to your meals.

47:02

Harley: And like, I looked down on you so much that even me eating a butt grape. Like I still feel like morally I outrank you.

47:10

Holly: Yeah, because they don't eat meat. So therefore, their religion and their worship are purer. In their eyes, in their own eyes.

47:19

Harley: So, it's like when I say that they pity him, or they look down on him. They look down on him from my sort of religious perspective. So, it's that thing of the like, yes, in this like, physical world, or whatever you get to like, stick a grape in someone's ass, and then make me eat it. But in that kind of spiritual sense, that just shows that I am so much holier than you. So, I still have the moral superiority.

47:44

Holly: Yeah. And that is probably the one theme that carries on through the whole book is that religious delusion.

47:53

Harley: But not always, I think it's like religion as a way of coping religion as a mechanism of control, religion as a sort of internal storytelling device. I honestly feel like she came close to having a point. She just didn't quite succeed. Yeah, she got a bit carried away with her work. Obviously, having a wank with words.

48:17

Holly: There's quite a few elements in there that feel like a fairy tale that I just can't quite remember. But there's not enough points in there to shape that fairy tale. And for me to be able to name it.

48:29

Harley: It feels like she started with something that was almost a point. And instead of pushing her to actually get to the point, her editor let her, just masturbate all over the page. Yeah, honestly, like, that's the simplest way I can sum up how I feel.

48:47

Holly: I guess dear listeners, if we have just massively missed the point, and it's something super simple. Please let us know. We're keen to hear. Fable, fairy tale, or just fucked up? Did we miss the point? Or are we justified in our ramblings I'm still unsure if I hate it or not.

49:07

Harley: You know, what makes me land on the side of I hate it, is that it feels like that kind of thing where people will come and say, No, you guys missed the point. You just don't get it this that the other but actually, it's like that, like, you know, there's bits of artwork and things like that where people get it, so that they seem intellectual.

49:27

Holly: Are we just stupid? Or are we justified?

49:30

Harley: Or are we smart enough to see through the intellectual bullshit? I don't know. It just like it felt like I know, at the start of reading it, I was like, it feels like a little bit like Russian literature or something in that it's got lots of characters and a bit rambley and all that kind of thing. And I will say I'm not a huge fan of most Russian literature. I haven't read all of it. But the bits that I have, I haven't disliked but I'm not like…

49:55

Holly: I would be impressed if you had read all of the Russian literature, all of it.

49:59

Harley: I mean, even the big names, you know what I mean. But yeah, as a general rule, I'm not like, frothing hard over Tolstoy or anything. I don't have such strong feelings about it as I do about this. But, I mean, initially, that's the kind of vibe that I got from it. And then as I got further in, I was like, oh, okay, this is just, like, not even gore porn. She's just pushing it to see how far she can push it. And then yeah, I got to the end of it. And I was like, Cool. Cool. So, I did all that for that. I'm so glad that I use that time that I’ll never get back.

50:36

Holly: So, let us know what you think. Yeah, that's pretty much it.

50:39

Harley: You are allowed to like things we don't.

50:43

Holly: Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, not the book, don't care what your thoughts on the book, if you enjoyed this podcast, please rate us five stars.

50:52

Harley: If your like, Jesus Christ, Harley, have a Valium and calm down. We'll do something more fun next week. And if you are still on the fence about reading it, I would say go to town, but have something lined up to read afterwards as a like palate cleanser.

51:11

Holly: Have your comfort book ready.

51:16

Harley: I think both of us really needed that palate cleanser after this.

51:20

Holly: Oh, I didn't read anything for two days. And that is so bizarre for me.

51:25

Harley: I think I took a week off and then was like, right. I think like, Robert Galbraith’s book came out. I know JK Rowling is like, super controversial, but I was like, I just, I need a dumb detective thing. Yeah, I need a who done it, where it's pretty obvious from like page three who done it, but whatever. So that's my one bit of advice to you is have a palate cleanser, regardless of how you ultimately end up feeling about the book, because it is one that gives you a bit of a dirty hangover. If you enjoyed this right at five stars, if you hated Lapvona and you don't want to listen to me talk about the mechanics of boobs, tune in next week.

52:03

Holly: Something more lighthearted. You can find us on Instagram at bimbo.bookclub.

52:11

Harley: All of our social links and links to all of the books mentioned, whether we like them or not, will be in our show notes. And as always, available on our website, bimbobookclub.com under the Lapvona heading. Thanks for listening. If you made it this far, I'm so sorry. See you next time. Over and out.

House of Hunger Transcript

© Bimbo Media

00:03

Holly: This is Bimbo Book Club with Holly.

00:12

Harley: And Harley. Welcome fellow book nerds back to another episode of Bimbo Book Club.

00:20

Holly: This week we are doing House of Hunger by Alexis Henderson.

00:26

Harley: Basic premise of the book is that Marion, our main character, answers a job ad to become a blood mage to the strange lords of the North, a position where you lead a life of luxury in exchange for just a little bit of your blood.

00:40

Holly: Which, on the surface, sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

00:42

Harley: Yeah, basically you're signing up to be a vampire’s property for a little bit. And then you get to live a life of luxury for the rest of your life. But given this is a somewhat gothic novel, things don’t go to plan.

00:56

Holly: No, they do not.

00:59

Harley: I would say, overall, I enjoyed this book. But I did have some major issues with it. How did you feel about it, Holly?

01:06

Holly: Yeah, I enjoyed it. I did have some issues. I think different issues to what you had.

01:12

Harley: So not the neon sign over one of the main characters’ head that's like, ‘Hi, I'm the bad guy. Want to know how you know? Because I'm literally named after the person described in history as the female Dracula.’

01:26

Holly: I mean, I didn't really have a problem with that.

01:28

Harley: You didn't spend the last two thirds of the book, being like, so when are we discovering her torture chamber in the basement?

01:36

Holly: Like, we knew it was coming.

01:39

Harley: But even when they were trying to sell her is like maybe there was a bigger, darker secret. And she was not part of it was like, Yeah, okay. But you've literally named her after the female Dracula in history, like the Blood Countess herself. So, there is a historical figure that shares a name with the main noble in the book.

02:01

Holly: Yeah. So, Alexis Henderson has definitely drawn a lot of inspiration from the story of Elizabeth Báthory. Do you want to tell them what the name of the big bad character?

02:12

Harley: Lisavet Bathory.

02:14

Holly: Does she have a surname?

02:16

Harley: I mean, I'll double check.

02:17

Holly: I thought it was just of the House of Hunger, but it probably was. Anyway, while you're looking that up, I'm going to talk to you guys a little bit about Elizabeth Bathory.

02:28

Harley: So, we're talking right now about the real historical figure, to be clear.

02:32

Holly: So, she's described as the most vicious female serial killer in all of recorded history. So, it's a pretty big call. She was born in 1560. And she was endowed with looks, wealth, an excellent education, and a pretty bloody stellar social position to start with. Her family ruled Transylvania as an independent kind of nation within the Kingdom of Hungary. When she was like 11, or 12, Elizabeth was betrothed to a noble guy of another aristocratic, Hungarian family. But a year or two later, she gave birth to a baby by a lower-order dude. So, her betrothed was reported to have had this guy castrated and then like torn to pieces by dogs, and rightly so. Because remember, at this point, Elizabeth is like 13.

03:16

Harley: Although to be fair, he's not doing it because he's like, ‘How dare you? She's a child.’ He's doing it because he's like, ‘How dare you? That's my property.’

03:22

Holly: Yeah. So, right results, wrong motivation. A little bit bloodthirsty. So, the child who was a daughter was quietly hidden from view until they got married in 1575. When little Lizzie was all 14 years old. Because Elizabeth socially outranks her husband, she kept her surname, and he took her surname, rightly so. And the couple lived in his family castle in Hungary, and what is now also considered Slovakia. But he was a soldier, and he was often away. Elizabeth ran the estate alongside taking various lovers. She then bore her husband four children. He kicked the bucket in 1604 when she was 43, just as word was starting to spread about her sadistic activities. Supposedly, and here is where we start to see where Alexis Henderson has drawn a lot of her inspiration. It was said that our mate Lizzie enjoyed torturing and killing young girls. Elizabeth believed that drinking the blood of her of these young girls would preserve her youth and her looks, which is basically the premise of House of Hunger. Spoiler alert. At first, these young girls were servants at her castles and daughters of the local peasants, but later they included girls sent to her by local families to learn good manners. Witnesses told of Elizabeth stabbing her victims as well as biting their breasts, hands, faces, and arms, cutting them with scissors, sticking them with needles or burning them with red hot irons, coins, or keys. Some were beaten to death, and some were stabbed. RIP Cecilia. The idea that Elizabeth used to bathe in the blood seems to have been added later on, but honestly, who knows?

05:04

Harley: Yeah, so there's theories that the extent of her being a menacing character and things like that was actually from male clergymen and things like that trying to minimize female power, take control back from a woman who is essentially ruling a land unchecked by her husband because he kicked the bucket. So that's not to say that she was like a super nice person who just got a bad deal.

05:29

Holly: And that's it, she wasn’t actually persecuted, put on trial, because of her standing. So, they were just like, ‘Hmm, these look like accomplices. Let's kill them.’ And they chucked her up in a tower and like, boarded her in and she lived there for a couple years till she died.

05:45

Harley: Whoever’s thinking of sticking me in a tower, probably would drive me mental, especially in time before you've got like books and internet and shit.

05:52

Holly: Oh, yeah. Surprised she lasted four years, I wouldn't have.

05:56

Harley: Yeah, so there's Lisavet Bathory, I was right. It took me a lot of pages to find it. But I was right. Countess of the House of Hunger.

06:05

Holly: So, is this a deliberate name change? Or did she just maybe misspell the name?

06:11

Harley: Well, it wouldn't surprise me if Elizabeth Bathory would be an anglicization of the name, that's not a Hungarian name. So maybe she's just dug further into the history. I've got to say I only really know about Elizabeth Bathory, the real one, through my tendency to Wikipedia freefall and like, just get curious about random shit, and end up deep diving on stupid topics. Not necessarily stupid topics, but like, largely irrelevant to my life. So, even just knowing that kind of generally about the historical figure, it really took a lot of the suspense out of the book for me, because it was such an obvious reference to an existing person who's got like, a rather significant reputation.

06:59

Holly: Yeah, which also kind of, it's understandable why people are referring to this book as historical fiction, which it is. A bit of a stretch, but that's the fiction bit, right?

07:14

Harley: Loose on the history, heavy on the fiction, I would call it a gothic novel, more than I would call it historical fiction. I think that it's certainly inspired by historical events, or like a fantastical version of historical events. And I did very much get the energy of like Eastern Europe in the way that she described, even the slums where Marion started and then the cold North with its brutal warlords and running the kingdom and who's got good blood and who's got bad blood and all that stuff.

07:46

Holly: Yeah, she did a really good job of creating that ambiance.

07:50

Harley: Yeah, it felt like almost a steampunk-y version of Eastern Europe. Yeah, it makes sense. Like, you know how people do that alternative London where everything went steam-powered instead of industrial?

07:59

Holly: That's exactly I get the same impression.

08:02

Harley: Yeah, that was the vibe I got is like an Eastern European version of steampunk London. So, I did really love that about the book. And this is what I mean, where it's like, I liked the book. I just feel like if you changed, even if you wrote the book with the countess being Lisavet Bathory, or even if it was just Lizavet and she changed the last name, or things like that, it was just such a close thing that I was like, well, obviously she's going to be this like seems lovely, but ultimately villainous lady whose torturing these girls. When Marion discovers the secret tunnels and the torture chamber and all of that kind of stuff. It's supposed to be a big reveal. And if anything, my reaction was like, Well, fucking finally.

08:47

Holly: Yeah. I mean, so I was kind of waiting for Lisavet to be actual vampire. Because they put breadcrumbs. There were lots of breadcrumbs about that, how she would leave the bed before dawn was never around during the day. And also calling the House of Hunger, House of Mirrors, House of Fog. Was there what a House of Wooden Stakes, a House of Garlic? I mean, there wasn't, but it was they were all very, very bread crumbing in the houses.

09:21

Harley: I do think though, there is the element of the like she like sucks for youth out of Cecilia. And they do talk about like, the reason why they're getting sick is because she's sucking the vitality out of them. So, I do think she's supposed to be a vampire. They're just not like, Oh, look, here's her grave dirt and her coffin.

09:38

Holly: Yeah, see, I was waiting for like a from dusk till dawn kind of here is the vampires reveal. And it just it didn't happen.

09:46

Harley: I feel like that's maybe somewhere where if you're determined to keep the name, then I think much, much earlier, she needs to discover the secret tunnels and the torture chamber and all that kind of stuff. And rather than immediately being like, ‘Oh, she's the bad guy. Let's go get out. Let me collect my fellow blood maids and make a run for it.’ You need to have that thing of being like, well, who's the actual bad guy here? Is it her? Is it maybe the house mother? Is maybe her father secretly still alive in the catacombs? And he's forcing her to do this. So, the premise basically, of the book is that the blood houses all use blood to keep themselves young and vital, and all that stuff, but particularly for the House of Hunger, which is the one that Lisavet rules. There's some kind of disease within the house a hunger that can never be satiated. So, they're constantly like feeding on people. Essentially, at one point, it's like, ‘I would drain you dry if I didn't stop myself, because I am starving constantly, and I could drain you dry and still be hungry.’ Which then also makes it weirder that she's only got four to five blood maids at any given time. Because if you've got an insatiable hunger, wouldn't you take every blood maid you could find?

11:04

Holly: But is that because, like, we obviously know, that they don't actually get released at the end of their servitude, which is meant to be between like three and seven years. They're meant to be released with this like pension essentially, but none of her previous blood maids have. And we find out later that Thiago, who is the blood taster who brings her these blood maids, kind of understands, he knows that they don't leave. So, if they're in cahoots, and like they know what's going on, they still need to be careful that they're not just bringing hundreds and hundreds of blood maids.

11:41

Harley: But there's like, a pretty vast number between five and hundreds.

11:47

Holly: Yeah, true. But then at the end, so they brought in a few new blood maids towards right at the end of the book. And it just seemed like they were being ravaged in a way that they were not going to make it through the night.

11:59

Harley: Yeah. And also too, the timeline of the turnover isn't really clear, because it seems like they've been there for a couple of years, the girls that are already there, or at least a year. And surely, it's like no more than six months if she really is keeping it to five or so. And that kind of turnover.

12:19

Holly: She found the documentation of the previous blood maids, they never really overlapped. So, Celia was considered for the majority of the first part of the book, at least, the first blood maid.

12:33

Harley: So, being a blood maid is somewhere between being in a vampire’s enthrall and being a mistress to a king, or a queen, in this case. So, the idea of the ranking is very much that nobility thing, but it's also that harem kind of thing. Yeah, so she's like the first mistress, only instead of being a mistress. She's a blood maid. But she's also a mistress, but like, first and foremost, she's there to give blood.

13:02

Holly: So, she doesn't ever cross paths with anyone before her, only the current ones. And then I don't believe that any of the other current ones have also crossed paths with any of the previous ones.

13:16

Harley: Because she was the first of all that batch. But there is some degree of like, so Marion overlaps with Cecilia. Unsurprisingly, for any novel ever Marion turns up and has like the tastiest blood to ever be tasted and immediately just about becomes first blood maid, knocking Cecilia off her porch.

13:38

Holly: Even though Cecilia cost more right. She bargains with Marion.

13:44

Harley: Pays to purchase poor people, I guess? They don't know their worth. I mean, she literally says that when she sees how much she got paid for her. She's like, ‘You scoundrel, you're out there acting like I'm only worth 1000 or 2000. And I'm worth like three times that you dodgy fucker.’ So, she literally doesn't know her worth because she's grown up in the slums and she's poor. Why do you think creeps hit on baby strippers? But don't know their worth yet. Yeah, anyway, when we talk about like, first blood maid, second blood maid, all that stuff it is think king's mistress. And the idea is that then when you're like the king is done with you, again in this case, the lady is done with you. You are given a pension and a piece of land and you get to retire, but we find out through the book that nobody retires. So, the only blood maid we see leave is Cecilia. I use the ‘leaves’ term loosely. So, she has a mental breakdown when she loses the position of first blood maid. And there is some stuff throughout the book, as I think especially when it's drawn directly from your body. So, they like often use needles to extract blood and it's like mixed into wine and things. But Lisavet she’s got like fangs that she's made. Yeah, gold kept canines. Yeah, like so like dentures but they've I mean essentially the way that people get things these days but instead of being ceramic they're gold. So, she likes to bite people directly which again is a nod to Elizabeth Báthory who did bite, at least in legend.

15:24

Holly: Very vampiric.

15:27

Harley: There is some stuff that it's like that kind of feeling in particular, she does put her blood maids in thrall to her. So, Cecilia is not just obsessed with her position, but actually obsessed with Lisavet. And when Marion takes that spot, she becomes quite obsessed with loads of it and is super in love with her and all that stuff.

15:45

Holly: Which is a little nod to Bram Stoker's Dracula.

15:49

Harley: And I mean, being enthralled to a vampire is a pretty classic vampire trope. I know a lot of people don't know their classics now that it's been tainted with all the modern vampire lore. But yeah, it was a pretty common thing to use that exchange of blood to keep a mortal under your spell, or to be able to look into their eyes and hypnotize them with your vampire powers. Suddenly realizing I probably have vampiric boobs. Look into my titties, give me all your money. Cecilia, of course, doesn't leave she gets demoted to the torture chamber in the basement.

16:29

Holly: Demoted to the torture chamber. What a beautiful way of summing it up.

16:35

Harley: It's not inaccurate.

16:36

Holly: It's not inaccurate. So, there was one thing, that theme that kind of centered around Celia for a bit of the novel, which was the name wretch or the word wretch. So, we see it carved into Marion's first room. It's carved into the leg of the bed, I believe, with the tooth. And then Marion moves into Cecilia's room, and it's carved in many, many more places. She also picks up a throat ribbon that Cecilia drops, and it's also written on the inside of that ribbon. So, we see it pop up a few times. And we also know that Lisavet calls Cecilia her little wretch or wretch girl or something like that, when she has been demoted into the chamber. But we don't really see much else about that.

17:27

Harley: So, I think it's supposed to signify that, I guess transition into being demoted, for lack of a better phrase, because she goes from being this beautiful, pampered pet to being barely human, like this kind of creature. And it does have a little bit of a nod to Renfield, who is this miserable creature just eating as bugs, trying to gather his life force and all that kind of stuff. But isn't a little more than a wretched servant to his dark lord.

18:04

Holly: Yeah. So, is this a title that comes with being the first blood maid or is a Celia specifically?

18:11

Harley: I think it's a title that comes with losing your position.

18:15

Holly: But if we see the word carved in what we can assume was Cecilia's first bedroom in the home before she was promoted to first blood maid.

18:23

Harley: But I think that, if anything at all like because Marion starts to discover what's really going on when she becomes first blood maid. It seems like Cecilia already knows what's going on, like, ahead of time. So, I wonder if it's a case of repeated girls in the past have discovered that it does feel like it's a message that's supposed to mean more than it does, and she doesn't quite follow that through in that way.

18:48

Holly: Doesn't quite follow through with the teeth.

18:51

Harley: Yeah, so there is a recurring theme. So, Marion finds a tooth with the word wretch in her first bedroom. And then, Celia, when she is trying to keep her position and has already lost it, basically pulls out some of her teeth. Like she smashes everything in her bedroom, she pulls out some of her teeth to give to Lisavet to prove that she loves her. And then Lisavet says to Marion at one stage when they were alone together, she's like, ‘If you really love me, give me one of your teeth.’ Like, pull out your own teeth with a knife, off you go to show me that you love me, and she stops her before she does it. But there is a recurring theme of that. And I think this is where if you were gonna go with Lisavet keeping the name Lisavet Bathory. Discovering the torture chamber earlier and then more of that, like, is she just psychotically desperate for love or validation or like, what's going on there where it becomes more of a character study of like somebody's deranged and demonic. Yeah, could have been really interesting from that gothic novel theme, and especially to if you did tie in that level of being enthralled where it's like she's in love with her, in this way where it's like I know that she's like, ‘I've already figured out that she's the sinister bad guy. But I can't figure out how to untangle myself,’ and realizing that a lot of that has to do with the blood and feeding.

20:11

Holly: And so, this obsession is like many faceted. It's obviously mental. It's physical in both the giving of their blood and their lifeforce, but also giving their body in a sexual capacity. So, Cecilia, often ends up in Lisavet's bed, and we start to see early on that Marion is very keen to do the same, and actually gets jealous when - so two of the blood maids are twins - when she watches Lisavet in bed with the two twins having a little romp. And she gets super jealous about it. And this is right before she's promoted to first blood maid. And then, she's also climbing into bed with her. Now, I have thoughts about these sex scenes, and you have thoughts about the sex scenes, and I think they're a little different.

21:08

Harley: Yeah, I really thought that she was a little bit matter-of-fact about Marion being gay, because she talks prior to her turning up to the castle about her having relationships with other women. And she does mention at one stage that the women kind of wanted to deny their passions or whatever. So, it is kind of maybe alluded to that being gay is not wholly acceptable in the slums where she starts off, but it's not necessarily frowned upon either. She's very matter-of-fact about how she talks about it. And then when she gets to the North, to the House of Hunger, the sex scenes do go into more detail. It really feels very matter-of-fact, to me. But you got a bit of a different vibe from it.

21:53

Holly: Yeah. So, I kind of I still saw a lot of the elements from those sex scenes as being male gazey, particularly when Marion was like spying on the twins. And I think also, some of the ways that it was very matter of fact, I just came across as a little bit male gazey. So, I have seen this novel marketed as a sapphic novel. Which essentially means like, it's a lesbian novel. And I just don't really feel that it hits that genre on the head.

22:27

Harley: Yeah, I think, for me personally to qualify something as a sapphic novel, the lesbianism has to matter to the novel. And I don't feel like it particularly does, even if she'd gone into more detail about passion and things like that. I think it's very, to me anyway, it read as a little bit matter of fact, in terms of like, Marion is already gay, and we're not in the head of anybody who doesn't already feel an attraction to women. But also, the attraction that she feels to Lisavet is less sexual and more again, that blood thrall thing. Where it's not an exploration of women falling in love, or even women discovering each other's bodies in a purely physical sense. It's just an extension of that, like, again, that like Elizabeth Báthory thing of her being like, essentially, a lot of the reason why it was believed that she maybe got a bit of a bad rap for being a woman that had too much power, is because every single box she ticks is things that were alarming to the good Christian folk, including being sexual with other women and it also ties into that vampire thing of them having just like an endless appetite for life and passion and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, it just like it read is really uneventful to me. And I personally think if you're going to describe something as a sapphic novel, I already said, it needs to matter. The lesbian part of the thing, the sapphic stuff needs to actually matter. And I don't feel like it really mattered in this, which I don't think is necessarily a bad thing. I think that sometimes how you normalize stuff is just by being like, yeah, it's like, who cares?

24:15

Holly: But it just feels quite hollow. And I feel like it's missing that romantic element that should be present. I guess we're compensating for that romantic element with the I’m drinking your blood and therefore you're obsessed with me. I think the component that feels very male gaze to me.

24:33

Harley: Yeah, I suppose maybe that's just the tone with that, like obsession and sex, but I don't I guess for me because I read it as an extension of that obsession. And I've always had a bit of a thing for vampire lore and like, especially old vampire lore, I guess in my head it just slotted into that category. So, I didn't even really register it as anything other than a like—honestly the only register that I really heard about it about any of the sex stuff is very early in the book, where I was like, oh, they've written her as gay in a very normal way. Which I appreciate because it's first brought up as like, they're looking at ads in the paper for like, essentially, like men seeking wives. And somebody was banging on about in one of the ads about must be pure and this that the other and her friend says something about it and she's like, ‘Oh, I'm not pure.’ And it mentions the like, ‘Oh, I've had enough previous relationships. Nobody's been important, but I've had enough previous relationships,’ and kind of casually mentioned that they were women and moves on. And I appreciated that. And then yeah, by the time they were getting it on, at the house of hunger, to me, that was more about the being enthralled obsession than it was about sex of any kind.

25:43

Holly: But I guess I'm interpreting that as in place of the romance. And you're interpreting it as an extension of which I think, yeah, that makes sense why we're viewing it slightly differently. But yeah, ultimately, we kind of have the same feelings. So traditional sort of vampire novels, lore, everything, they tend to kind of focus around that like, intersection of sex and desire, privilege, wealth, abuse of power, blood. And I think it does do that. And I think these relationships also do that. It just feels it's missing that little.

26:26

Harley: I actually don't think that what it's missing is what you think it's missing. Just in terms of like, I don't think that it needs to be more of a romantic thing. I think she isn't quite scary enough. In her writing.

26:43

Holly: Yeah. And she's not sexual enough in her writing.

26:46

Harley: Yeah, for sure. It definitely reads to me a little bit like maybe she's not super comfortable writing a sex scene, which is cool. It's a different thing, writing a sex scene to having sex. You know, it's like, not everybody who has sex is comfortable talking dirty. And there is an element of sex writing that requires you to be comfortable with speaking about sex in a way that should be more normalized but isn't. And also, just some people aren't verbal in that way, I guess.

27:17

Holly: Now I know you're a big stickler for sex needs to further the plot. Do you feel like the sex in this book furthered the plot? Or could we have just removed the sex from it?

27:30

Harley: I think it furthered the plot. I don't necessarily think she leaned in hard enough to why it was there. But I do think that her reason for putting it in was valid. So, if you think about it, it feels like she knew she needed for example, for that lack of obsessiveness and that jealousy to rise up. So, seeing Lisavet with the twins, forced that kind of upset, pushed her to the point of challenging was a bit and being like, Why are you ignoring me? and that kind of thing, which kind of directly led to her becoming first blood maid and all that stuff. So, it's served its purpose. If anything, it feels like she resentfully left it in there, rather than gratuitously putting it in there.

28:17

Holly: I get what you're saying. I actually think that, that jealousy could have been achieved in a different way. If say, Lisavet it was dining, she doesn't dine with them, does she? But spending time with them?

28:33

Harley: I don’t think playing cards with your other mistresses really sums up the level of the kind of obsession that Marion is feeling that we see. Because it's feeding into a fear that Marion has that she feels something for the other blood maids more than she feels for Marion.

28:51

Holly: But I think we could have seen it through small moments of intimacy.

28:57

Harley: It took forever to up and bang on and get to the point you get on with it. You're not gonna like, give me some meat then? I don't know. I actually think it could have stayed there. Yeah, I guess it's a agree to disagree moment for us. Because, you know, I think it served its purpose. And I really don't think that a game of snap is going to quite deliver in the same.

29:17

Holly: But I think we are agreeing on the same point is that she could have leaned in harder. I just think she could have changed it. If she really was that uncomfortable writing sex. She could have changed it was small moments or change it to small moments of intimacy.

29:30

Harley: But that takes away from the like, menace of a vampire.

29:34

Holly: But she's not a very menacing vampire to begin with.

29:37

Harley: The point is, it's like you can't lose any of the little things that make her that like, vampire.

29:45

Holly: At what point in the novel if at any point did you find her menacing?

29:52

Harley: To be honest, I found her… I suppose we arrived at the end where they were doing that like she was chasing her down with the crossbow but if anything, I actually thought that the menacing thing was the overarching power of her position and all that kind of stuff and then realizing how trapped they were. So, I don't necessarily find it, I don’t know that I found her specifically menacing. But I found elements of the castle of the power of her staff menacing in a way that obviously represented her. I've really honestly, I think that if I was going to critique the book, it certainly wouldn't be the sex scenes, I would have pushed for her to find her way downstairs faster, even if it was like maybe give her tutor a little bit more autonomy, because essentially, she finds the passages on earn comes out there, and the house mother or whatever she's called, catches him about to be like, make a fucking run for it. He gets fired.

30:50

Holly: I’m pretty sure he’d get demoted to the dungeon.

30:53

Harley: But maybe he left a book out and she discovered the passages or things like that that got there earlier. And then it makes more sense that he's then taken away as her confidant.

31:04

Holly: Absolutely.

31:06

Harley: And then it makes it more like, hard for her to trust people. Because who do you trust? If even if somebody is on your side, they could be taken away at any minute.

31:14

Holly: Yeah. So, I think the pacing of this book was a little bit off, I felt the start was about right. The middle was kind of dragging a little bit, where they could have put some more breadcrumbs towards finding these passages or needing to get the fuck out of the castle kind of thing in there. And then I just felt like the last maybe quarter was this real rush. And I understand that she was probably trying to create this sense of urgency to get out. But I feel like from finding the demoted dungeon to the book finishing, it was just too much of a rush.

31:52

Harley: I feel like if say she found the dungeon earlier, and then was like, I've got this conflict of being like I'm obsessed with Lisavet. Maybe she's found something in the catacombs that makes her be like, is Lisavet the bad guy, or is like maybe her father is still down there, or there's some other spirits in this house, or there's some of the curse here?

32:12

Holly: Or even finding it empty before being before Celia is demoted.

32:17

Harley: But like, oh, she doesn't recognize like, there's something in there. But it's like a creature. It's not a person. As far as she's aware. It's not until Cecilia is down there that she's like, ‘Oh, shit,’ and then maybe even having her be like, I'm trying to find a smart way to get out of this situation that I found myself in. And then maybe right at the end with isn't May the young? So, she's not a blood maid yet. But she's actually in training to be a blood mate. And she's like a child.

32:49

Holly:  She’s like four. Or maybe they've found her at four. When she's like a she's a little bit older. Yeah, she doesn't speak.

32:54

Harley: She's a very, very young child at any rate. So maybe if she'd found out that may be finally hitting the age where she would become a blood maid. And they were like making a big deal out of that. And that was the motivator to kind of speed up the end of the novel and be like, right, I can't find a smart way out of this. I've just got to risk everything and get these girls out of here. Because yeah, not about surviving. But it's about me like, yes, surviving, but also trying to save somebody from this fate. But I may not be able to escape. And then it makes a lot more sense that she's like running through the end of the castle, like, running further into the castle to lead Lisavet away from May.

33:31

Holly: Yeah, that makes sense. So, they mentioned in the novel that you cannot become a blood maid until six months after your first bleed. So, if we did see, May, having her first bleed. And then it's like, fuck, time is on or even is this countdown now.

33:49

Harley: Realizing that late so there's some conversation between the house where there was you find some paperwork or whatever, that makes her realize that they're not going to wait for her. So, she's like, I've got time, because she's just thinking of herself. And she's got time to get back there. And then expose them and come back here and save the rest of the girls and save me and all that stuff. And then realizing that she actually can't save them at all. Like they all have to get out or they're fucked. And that they're not going to wait for May to be old enough.

34:18

Holly: Overhearing a conversation with Thiago about how he can't get her enough blood maids. And she's just like, ‘Oh, yeah, well, May will do she'll tide us over.’

34:28

Harley: May is down there for something and they're not quite doing it yet. But it's very, very clear that they’re starting training to use her in a way that's like not okay. I think that there's a whole lot of stuff there that you could have done that would have changed the pacing and made it a more interesting story. That said, I read it in one sitting, I really enjoyed it.

34:49

Holly: Did you? I mean, it doesn't surprise me.

34:51

Harley: I read most things in one sitting. It's true. Not everything. I feel like it is one that the only first duration that I really felt as I was reading the book was Why have you given me such an obvious tell? Because it made it really hard for me to go with what the rest of what she was doing was and this is the hard thing for me is I'm like, all of this stuff works with her still being Lisavet but all that kind of stuff changes if you changed her name. I wonder if that would change the pacing. Because you would be more like, Is she good? Is she bad?

35:29

Holly: Call her Stacy or something and then you can be surprised when you find the dungeon.

35:33

Harley: But yeah, it's like that if it wasn't so obviously marked. Would that have made it more effective pacing-wise and more effective as a story? I mean, that's the hallmark of kind of a gothic horror is that sense of menace but they're not really knowing always being on the back foot about who's good, who's bad. Yeah, and often in a gothic horror the characters who seem bad like Lord Ivor is the bad guy throughout most of the novel and then right at the end, he is not directly, but the way that they save themselves. And they're kind of the last hope that they have. And, that's very, like traditional gothic horror, where the characters that you initially think of the good ones turned out to be the bad ones. And the bad ones turn out to be the good ones and all that. I can get on board for all that stuff. But when you red flag that the character that she's obsessed with, the whole time you like don't fall in love with the evil torture countess.

36:42

Holly: We should look into if we can find the names of any of her victims and see if she's directly ripped those off as well.

36:49

Harley: Honestly, I was a little bit disappointed, I was waiting for the pool of blood in the torture chamber.

36:54

Holly: Yeah.

36:55

Harley: That's how well I know the legend. That's how much of a like obvious signpost that was for me. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if changing the name would change it. Obviously, I can't reread it now without knowing how things work. I don't know if changing some of the elements of the story would need to change. When the plot points happen. I feel like after making critiques on things like this, we are going to be fucked if we ever write a novel.

37:21

Holly: Oh, yeah. I'm only ever going to write an autobiography. So, I can be like, ‘Well, you weren't there.’

37:27

Harley: Like we've critiqued all this stuff. And then we've failed. Listen, I do think that it's something that as a reader, sometimes picking apart this stuff makes the concept of writing something more accessible. Because you're like, here are areas where authors that I like, and also is that I respect have maybe not delivered 100%. And it's still a perfectly functional perfectly good story.

37:50

Holly: Yeah. And I'm sure it sounds like we've just spent what, half an hour tearing it apart. It probably sounds like we don't like it. I enjoyed it. I would have liked the pacing to be a little different. But aside from that, I actually did. I’d read the sequel/

38:05

Holly: Do you think there will be a sequel?

38:06

Harley: No idea, but I would happily read one.

38:08

Holly: Maybe she'll pick a different murderous countess.

38:14

Harley: Yeah. Anyway. I feel like doing this kind of thing often does require us picking stuff apart. Actually, you know what else I thought was a good note for it is  I actually think one of the things that was done well in this book is like, Marion’s brother dies very early on he falls or she, like, pushes him any, he gets knocked over whatever happens. But essentially, he smashes his head, and she sees the concave and like a little bit of his bone and brain and stuff and realizes that he is not going to make it. And that comes up for her a few times. That comes up for her a few times is this kind of thing of like I have participated in this. And I'm a terrible person and all that kind of stuff. So how can I judge Lisavet for drinking blood and for the kind of gory things and all that kind of stuff? And I think that that's done really well.

39:24

Holly: Yes, I think the gore has done quite tastefully.

39:27

Harley: And like when it's there, it very much is there to serve a purpose even when it kind of doesn't feel like it, initially. Because certainly the first time you with her brother, you're kind of like, that's a bit full on. But then when you see the way that she calls back and calls back and calls back for her where it is that thing of kind of what kind of person am I? and that memory that you can't let go of and that like it haunts her basically, I think it works and it makes sense. I think she's done a really good job of that.

39:53

Holly: Yes, I know we're moving away from tearing the novel apart, but I've just had another... So, it was briefly touched on that Lisavet can access memories through people's blood. What happened with that?

40:09

Harley: Well, I mean, that's how she figures out that they're betraying her. She drinks her blood. And she's like, well, I already knew. There's my proof.

40:16

Holly: I thought Irene had just told her but no, that makes more sense. Through the blood.

40:23

Harley: Yeah. See? And that's again, where if all of this had come up earlier, and all that kind of stuff, and there's all these questions and concerns, and she's like, how do I hide this from her? And then even her thinking that she's managed to hide it from her. And her being like, I've seen every single one of your doubts about me this whole fucking time, dickhead.

40:40

Holly: Yeah, I knew everything. So of course, I knew that you found the chamber.

40:44

Harley: And I think that that is supposed to be her being menacing where it's like, she's omnipresent, or whatever, because she can read their thoughts.

40:52

Holly: Okay. So, if that was a little bit more emphasized, I think she would have been a much more menacing character. I think she is almost a menacing character, almost. There are a few moments, like when they go out hunting, and she's like, pointing the weapon at what's his face, and it's like, ‘Kill him.’ And Marion almost does. And that moment with the little knife and extracting tooth for me, those moments, they are a little bit menacing. And if we just saw a little bit more of that.

41:25

Harley: And you know what, I think she could have leaned in quite hard to that, I want to say almost that like, drug addicts love, where it's that like obsessive us against the world, we'll do fucked up shit to prove that we love each other and all that anything. That's like, maybe we are not the most rational. And that’s very much like somebody who already has a history of addiction. And then as well as often an active substance addiction develops an addiction to a person, you get that really unhealthy, obsessive kind of thing. And I think maybe elements of that could have been brought to the surface. And I really think that things like, Would you cut out your heart for me? Would you cut out your tooth for me? What would you do to prove that you love me?

42:07

Holly: Oh, my God, the scene where she's got the quail heart on the tip of the scalpel, and just feeds it to Celia. Oddly arousing.

42:21

Holly: On your own there.

42:22

Holly: You should have seen the look Harley just gave me. But again, I think that's the control. That's the obsession. That's the blind obedience.

42:30

Harley: Yeah. And they do talk about if you're a blood maid, you need to be blindly obedient to your master. But they talk about that as just a rule. Like, if you're a noble for a kingdom, you probably shouldn't betray your king. So, guys, we just wanted to say again, thank you so much for listening. We hope you enjoyed this episode. If you have any thoughts about this episode recommendations for future episodes, let us know.

42:57

Holly: links to other things will be in our show notes and also available at bio.link/bimbo. If you want to see a little bit more exclusive episodes behind the scenes and other random hot girl shit. You can find that at our Patreon again, that link will be in our show notes.

43:12

Harley: Join us again next week for more books, babes, and banter.

43:16

Holly: Bimbos out.

Holly Hates ACOTAR: Part Two Transcript

© Bimbo Media

00:03

Holly: This is Bimbo Book Club with Holly.

00:12

Harley: And Harley.

00:15

Holly: All right, welcome back. ACOTAR part two, just in case you haven't listened to part one you might want to because we're coming in exactly how we left off.

00:22

Harley: You mean entirely unhinged?

00:24

Holly: Yep. Pretty much.

00:26

Harley: Making everyone go, What the hell are you two on about? Get back to the books.

00:29

Holly: Yeah.

00:31

Harley: Well, we were pretty tough on Sarah J. Maas last week. So, to turn it around, especially since I actually quite like her books.

00:38

Holly: I'm happy to hate on her.

00:40

Harley: Let's talk about something that she's done well.

00:42

Holly: Well, okay. Also, please don't come at me. Everyone.

00:47

Harley: Honestly, engagement is engagement, come at her.

00:51

Holly: Just no death threats, please. Blood rubies, yes. Send them.

00:57

Harley: We will only accept death threats in precious gems and cash.

01:02

Holly: We will also accept emeralds.

01:05

Harley: I said precious gems. Yeah.

01:06

Holly: I'm just listing the ones I really like, specifically diamonds.

01:10

Harley: Yeah. I mean, I feel like they've got death written all over them in a whole different sense. If you send us ethical precious gems…

01:18

Holly: Oh, absolutely ethical, please. Yes. Figurative blood diamonds, not literal blood diamonds. Okay, so what were you saying about her doing something good?

01:26

Harley: What were you saying about our talent for derailing? So, I think one of the things that she's done really well is at the end of the day, this is smut. It's fairy porn.

01:39

Holly: Yes, it is.

01:40

Harley: I think she's done a really good job of the sex stuff.

01:43

Holly: Yeah, I know, this is a big thing for you.

01:47

Harley: Well, not so much the sex scenes themselves. I mean, I enjoyed them fine. But I actually think so I have, over the course of learning about weird shit, have studied how to write a sex scene, or how to make a sex scene work within a book, regardless of whether it's one sex scene within a book, or whether to erotic fiction, and one of the really salient points of how you do it, is that the scene must serve the overall story. So, if you could take the scene out, and in no way impacts the story to say now, don't do it. It's not necessary, which is one of the reasons why 50 Shades of Gray is so crap. Because if you took out all the unnecessary sex scenes, it would be three pages.

02:32

Holly: It wouldn't even make it three pages, because it would be like, ‘I think I need a restraining order at this point.’ And then the book would be over.

02:38

Harley: Yeah, pretty much all of the scenes that are sexual that I can think of, over the course of the series, do that effectively. So, whether you like the scene or not, it does serve the overall storytelling.

02:54

Holly: And I think outside of the sex scenes, she does also do like sexual tension quite well as well. Particularly through some of those secondary characters. Even if she must unravel that later, annoyingly.

03:07

Harley: If you like sexual tension, you really should read Nesta’s book.

03:10

Holly: Okay.

03:12

Harley: This is what she thinks is bullying.

03:16

Holly: I’m a sensitive soul.

03:18

Harley: You don’t have to. You can choose to read it or not read it. I'm just saying there is a lot of sexual tension in that book. Yeah, anyway, I just think it's something that she's done really well, I think a really good example would be the kind of almost sex and then not, as she realizes that Rhysand’s her mate. Followed by that kind of moment of accepting the mating bond and the whole like, serving him soup and then just like being randy teenagers.

03:48

Holly: I have feelings about the soup scene. I didn't like it. I felt like, I get it. I know it's meant to be like an intimate quiet, lovely, intimate moment, where she serves her mate soup. And this like, mating bond is confirmed or some shit, officially accepted by both parties. They talked about how this bond like snaps into place and it's this big thing and this is deep knowing, but then it was just so anticlimactic and uneventful. I know it's meant to be sweet and everything and I get that but it's just like, so he knew, he felt it snap into place. But what the fuck? She had no clue until it had to be like spelt out to her?

04:40

Harley: To be fair. She's not the brightest bulb.

04:43

Holly: She's definitely not the brightest bulb. So, I think you had a theory as to why she may not have felt it snap into place. Yeah, you suggested that perhaps it happened when she died.

04:54

Harley: Did I?

04:55

Holly: You did. You're smarter than you think. You did! You had a theory.

04:57

Harley: I don't remember saying that. But I can follow that train of logic. So, it doesn't fully snap in for him until just after that, but he's the tether that holds her. And so, she all at once becomes Fae, she's holding on to this bond that she doesn't recognize. And I don't think she realizes until later on that it's Rhys holding her there. And I think that's the mating bond. So that's the first time she feels it is when she has just died and it's tethering her to life. That's the first time she feels it. So that's the only space that it could have snapped for her. And it would have been believable or plausible, I guess, not too much believable, would have been plausible that she did feel it. But given that she felt her spine snap, her life leaves her, and some tether’s holding her in. And then the reanimation of her body in a completely new Fae form. I feel like you’ve maybe missed some of the nuances of what exactly it's snapping in and out.

06:00

Holly: Yeah, it makes sense. And then when she's off to readying this upcoming wedding, and she's off in the Spring Court with Tamlin and all of this, that dread and that fear and all of that, feeling trapped, captivity kind of situation could plausibly be the mating bond, pulling her going, You're in the wrong spot, not where you're meant to be.

06:24

Harley: I think that's also a disservice though, to the fact that part of the arc of her with Tamlin in the early thing is that I don't think she ever, even before she had the meeting bone to contend with, I don't think she ever loved Tamlin. I think she loved what he represented to her. So, she's gone from this life of poverty and constantly never getting a break from having to slave away and to keep her family on the brink of starvation, in a hovel.

06:58

Holly: Katniss Everdeen style. Yeah, with a bow and arrow in the woods.

07:02

Harley: To suddenly being whisked off to, yes, like, palatial environment and all that kind of stuff, but more importantly, to having enough to eat and free time and nobody to be responsible for. And so, he represents that freedom from survival and safety.

07:23

Holly: He absolutely represents safety in that moment. Yes, he does.

07:26

Harley: And I think that, when you're young, safety and luxury, seem like a thing to desire in a partner. But I also think that when you're in that place of survival, you're like, ugh the things I wouldn't do for someone to just make it so that I don't have to spend every waking minute panicking about how close we are to not surviving. I think those are really natural things to I guess, mis-wire in your own brain and interpret as love. And I think that the thing we see when she becomes Fae, and we go kind of getting to the start of the second book, is that she is now more mature from the stuff she's gone through and stronger and more capable and all that kind of stuff.

08:14

Holly: How old is she in this?

08:15

Harley: 18, 19?

08:16

Holly: Oh my gosh, she a baby. She has no idea. I understand, I get that. 18 or 19-year-old me would also be like, Absolutely, this is great. I get to paint all day, every day. I have no bills, someone makes food for me. I can go out and trap the Suriel if I want to.

08:38

Harley: But then she can't. And this is the, I guess, juxtaposition in Tamlin’s thing is that, admittedly, he doesn't have a choice. But while she's human, she goes out and traps the Suriel, she hunts for herself and her family. She does all of these things that demonstrate that she is in fact a capable person. And then once the big bad of Amarantha is taken away and Tamlin’s back at full power. He's basically like, you will sit on the shelf and be pretty and do your paintings. While she's like No, but I want to actually do useful stuff. And she has the ability to do some of the things as a human, she's less fragile. She's always had a penchant for survival. And he won't even train her in private, he gives her no leeway. So, it is a little bit like when he doesn't officially have her because Tamlin doesn't really have her until… so throughout most of that book, they're like, oh, there's flashes of you being the love of my life. But then there's also all the prejudice and hatred and yada yada. But then when she comes back into the faking them to be like, wait, I love you. I'm coming back for you. Like you're my person, whatever. She's immediately in the clutches of Amarantha. So once again, he doesn't have her because she could die at any minute and chances are pretty fucking good that she will. And she does. But it's the first time he's had her as his. And immediately he's like, the worst overbearing boyfriend ever.

10:11

Holly: Hmm. I kind of understand that it's part of that's probably coming from a place of fear being like, I nearly lost you.

10:19

Harley: But I would say the same thing to a fae male with trauma as I would to a human male, which is, that's a you problem. So, it's perfectly fine to have a sense of fear around something happening to your partner after something has happened. It's perfectly fine to have fears in general or trauma in general, what's not okay, is to imprison literally at one point imprison, your partner to satisfy your own fears or to negate your own fears. That's an insane thing to do. That's abuse. Get a therapist.

10:54

Holly: Disregarding her fears, and her need her needs and she needs to absolutely not be locked up because she's just come from being locked up under the mountain.

11:05

Harley: Which is how she ended up getting like officially moving to the Night Court just because she has a full-tilt, panic attack and Mor comes and rescues her.

11:10

Peanut: [earflap]

11:13

Harley:

Please enjoy an earflap from our not-so-silent cohost. But yeah, so like, he’s not only is disregarding her wishes, he's actively pushing into her trauma to serve like to get a buffer for his own, which is the definition of an abusive, overbearing partner.

11:31

Harley: How did we get here?

11:32

Holly: Soup

11:33

Harley: So, Rhys knows from the end of the first book that they’re mates. Feyre doesn't realize until the last third of the second book.

11:45

Holly: Something like that. And she's fucking pissed off.

11:49

Harley: Yeah, she's like, everybody in this entire fucking court knew. And nobody thought to tell me about it. So, I'm just here being courted by my mate with everybody watching and I've missed a fucking memo. Which, yes babe, you have, but that's because you're stupid.

12:02

Holly: Yes. You are stupid. Yes.

12:06

Harley: To be fair, she’s not the only idiot in the Night Court. So, I think that that scene has that kind of, I guess, forgiveness and the wraparound and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, I kind of like that it's simple, because so much of their stuff is like, epic love. Having some simple moments in there is not a bad thing, in my opinion. I think there could be a bit of a ritual where both partners serve each other food and it becomes more of a breaking bread thing than like, ‘I served my man.’ But to be fair, that's not Rhys being like, ‘You have to serve me. You’re my woman now.’ It's him being like, ‘Don't give this to me if you don't want this because I'll respect that. But this means something to me.’ So, I mean, it is one of those moments where I'm like hmm, but I'm not too... There are bigger fights to have on the feminist front.

12:59

Holly: Why is it soup? And what constitutes soup? If I gave you a bowl of like, tomato sauce that's not warmed up? If I spit in a bowl and give that to you, is that soup?

13:07

Harley: It’s the serving of food. It's not the serving of soup specifically.

13:10

Holly: I thought it had to be soup.

13:16

Harley: Why did you think it had to be soup?

13:18

Holly: I mean, I was convinced that Hybern was just like this normal dude, like a human dude.

13:24

Harley: You thought that he was human?

13:31

Harley: I know you said to me that you thought he was just a regular dude, but I didn't realize you meant like a human regular dude. Before we started, she quizzed me on his powers. And I'm like, I don't fucking know, general high Fae powers. He can use his spell book to cast wards and shit. And she was genuinely baffled by this, and I was like, What the fuck? They literally had to break through Hybern’s walls in Hybern‘s castle. Where did you think they came from?

14:00

Holly: Yeah, he's a convincing dude with books. I honestly don't know. I was very confused.

14:11

Harley: Did you read the same series I read? Just to be clear. Well, did you definitely read the A Court of Thorns and Roses books by Sarah J. Maas? And not the CliffsNotes.

14:23

Holly: No, I read the first one. And then I accidentally bought the like full production value audiobook with all the different voices in the sound effects, and I fucking hated it. But I think I read the same thing as you.

14:42

Harley: I'm not so convinced. Yeah, so it doesn't have to be soup. It can be any kind of food. It's a little bit like freeing a house elf. It can be a sock, it can be a shirt, any piece of clothing. Now that we've established that soup is not the magic item of choice.

15:00

Holly: Don't look at me like that. Come on. I know I'm stupid.

15:03

Harley: The thing is that you're not normally, which is why it is baffling that you've just managed to completely miss multiple things in these books.

15:12

Holly: But I didn't enjoy them. So, I obviously didn't absorb as much information as I could have. It’s the same as math in high school. I didn't like it, didn't absorb much of it. I can just count in 100 notes, and 50s in a pinch.

15:27

Harley: Well, those are the only important numbers, right? So, I think one of the interesting things, interesting is maybe not the right word. But one of the things about the meeting bond, that is frustrating, interesting. I don't know, whatever word you want to put in there is it's supposed to be the super rare thing, but—

15:46

Holly: Everyone's fucking got one.

15:48

Harley: Yeah, pretty much.

15:49

Holly: Sorry, for my outburst.

15:53

Harley: Well, at least you followed that correctly. I think the most interesting one, because everybody ends up with their perfect person more or less like, Feyre ends up with her perfect person, like one she was always meant to be with. And Nesta ends up with Cassian, who totally gets her and all this kind of stuff. I think it would be really interesting, because one of the other things that she says at one point is that the mating bond is a biological thing, so just because people are matched doesn't mean that they are emotionally a good match, it means that they're essentially physically a good match that will pop out good, strong Fae babies.

16:36

Holly: So, does that mean that you could have a mating bond, like a problematic mating button, like a 70-year-old guy snaps with a 16-year-old girl, or a 700-year-old guy.

16:49

Harley: There's a 500-year-old female that snaps with a 19-year-old freshly Fae girl? Does that answer your question? The main character

17:00

Holly: Yeah. So, I forget the way Fae age. Could someone snap with like—no, I'm going too dark, I'll keep that thought to myself.

17:09

Harley: They do talk about Rhys’s parents snapping together and like caring for each other, but not fundamentally understanding each other and being like, deeply different people. So, they weren't necessarily unhappy with each other, but they weren't a good match. But I think one of the things where they talk about all this kind of stuff, is the only main kind of meaning bond that isn't resolved by the end of what she's written thus far is with Elain and Lucien. And I would really like it if she had Elain reject the mating bond and choose Azriel. Oh, okay. Okay, because he clearly understands her, he's a better match for her. I think they even at one point say, ‘Why couldn't she mate with him? And I'm pretty sure that's because that's a bit on the nose. But the three main men of the Night Court all bond with the sisters. Yeah, even two out of three is a little on the nose. And especially because she's often presented as the weakest of the three, both sisters spend a lot of time protecting her all that kind of stuff. But having her be the only one who has the strength to say, ‘I don't care if this is what biology says is best for us. I want somebody who I really genuinely care for. And at the end of the day, that's not you.’ Because Lucien obviously doesn't understand her or connect with her like it's Azriel every time, he manages to help her out of her shell, he's the one who realizes that she's a seer. It's him every time. And I think that there's also then other implications where you've got a lot of comparing the different courts and all that kind of stuff, but they do talk about the fact that when you are bonded, there are a lot of courts that believe that you then become the property of the man that you're mated with. And I mean, it's even referenced in terms of Elain because she has a human fiancée who hates the Fae. So when she becomes Fae, he's like, ‘Oh, and you've mated with someone so now your some Fae’s property, and I don't want any Fae whore here, so the marriage is off.’ But the thing is that there are Fae courts that would enforce Lucien's right to her because they are mated. And even the reason why Rhys is not held accountable for kidnapping Feyre is because they're mates. So that makes it all okay. But Rhys also says that that's not enforced in the Night Court. And if women come to the Night Court or within the Night Court say, ‘I don't want this person even though they're my mate.’ He enforces that and he protects them.

19:54

Holly: So that would be a really, really nice piece of foreshadowing that she's placed in that. But I don't think she's done that.

20:02

Harley: I really hope she does though. I don't care if she reads it on like some Reddit thread or she, for all I know is listening to this, but like steal it, do it. I so hope that's where she's going with it. And she set it all up to perfectly work that way. The one thing that makes me go, will she, won't she, is that she does like to wrap things up very neatly across all of her books. And that's not a neat story, I guess.

20:27

Holly: It's not a neat story. And she's also not likely to write the mating bond happening. And then Elain going off to the Spring Court, and then perhaps having an affair.

20:42

Harley: But I think it's more powerful if she does have the strength to say no. And I think it then puts Lucien in a position where he finally has to decide what kind of man he's going to be, because he hasn't really had enough screen time, I guess, for lack of a better word, to make those decisions. Because while he's at the Spring Court, he's quite subservient to Tamlin. He lets him get his way all the time, which I think is worth coming back to. But then once he's left there, and because he can't connect with Elain, and he doesn't really understand what's going on, and he doesn't fit in there. That's why he goes off to find reinforcements. And like, I mean, he comes back with his, motley crew, rather large cast of characters. But he, by the end of the books, or by the end of this series, is a more or less good guy, but he's not really been challenged in anything at this point. Okay, so if something truly evil is there, yeah, I'm on the other side. But what kind of person is he? And especially given he's probably going to be the heir to the Dawn Court, once everybody figures out that he is, in fact, Dawn’s child? Yeah, I think it would be really interesting in terms of like, what's his character, and finally having something where he can't fall back on being the second. Because he's always been the youngest son where he doesn't have to be the, like, daring character, is he a good guy or a bad guy? Because other people are the ruling class. And then with Tamlin, he never challenges Tamlin, ever.

22:10

Holly: No, that is his entire personality. He is loyal, almost to a fault in some instances. That just subservient second.

22:22

Harley: And he's like in the face of knowing that things are wrong. So repeatedly with Feyre like he, when she's first asked him to be trained, he sort of pushes back against Tamlin a little bit, but then when Tamlin it's like, ‘Absolutely not.’ He goes, ‘Oh, okay. Well, I tried.’ Whereas if you compare him to someone like Cassian, who I know is, is not Rhys’s second, but actually, it kind of says more that he's further down the list. If Feyre had been in that position at the Night Court and Rhys went, ‘Ah, I'm scared for you. I don't want you to train because what if there are spies out there and they catch you?’ Cassian would have been like, ‘Listen, I get that you're scared for her safety, we can compromise, we can do it in a fucking dungeon. You can pick a space and you can put all the wards in place so nobody can get in or out. Unless they you will have your permission. But I'm fucking training. I'm doing it. Whether you like it or not.’ She is wasting away. She's falling apart mentally, physically, emotionally, all of those things, she needs to have a sense of purpose, and she should know how to defend herself. So, I’m going to get her out there and teach her how to use a sword so that she can bash away, to release that emotional anger. She can get the physical like the mental therapy that comes from the physical stuff. And so that if some big scary guy comes out with a sword, she's like, ‘You know what, I can go head-to-head with Cassian pretty well, I reckon I can hold my own here.’

23:35

Holly: So, at the end of the day, like Cassian and Lucien have the same, they both want to help Feyre, but they also have someone that they're accountable to. They're just coming at it from completely separate ways. Lucien is listening to Tamlin, like, ‘We must protect her by hiding her keeping her precious and porcelain’ and all this Cassian is like, ‘Nah, Rhys and I we're going to make sure that she can find it.’

24:01

Harley: And I think I bring up Cassian in particular, because he is the most, I guess, loud one because I mean, I do think that Amarin, Mor, and Azriel would challenge Rhys if they didn't agree with his decisions, we see them do it throughout the books, but Cassian is the one who's most likely to be like, ‘I will fight you.’

24:20

Holly: ‘And you don't want me to fight you.’

24:23

Harley: ‘I will go through you throw her over a shoulder and storm off to a war camp. If you don't work with me here. You won't know which war camp I'm at. You can spend your entire life searching through the fucking wild mountains because I'll move around that fucking much. You think I can't do it,’ you know, essentially backwards like force Rhys into a corner where he's like, Maybe I have to compromise maybe I'm not currently in the right here just because I’m a High Lord? I do think that reflects on Tamlin’s character as well as Rhys’ as much as it reflects on Lucien and Cassian’s and all that stuff.

24:58

Holly: What's the age difference between Tamlin and Rhys?

25:01

Harley: Dunno? At least a few 100 years?

25:03

Holly: Yeah. So, Tamlin in a lot of ways does feel quite immature and then is a douche for running his court quite immaturely. And Lucien is just sort of following that because he has no back bone or personality or anything.

25:21

Harley: I think too, Tamlin never planned to be High Lord. Whereas Rhys was the one and only heir apparent for the Night Court. So, he always knew that he had to make decisions about what kind of High Lord he would be because he was if he wasn't the High Lord, then that was the end of the Night Court.

25:38

Holly: Oh, he had fucking mountains tattooed on his knees.

25:42

Harley: When he got back from under the mountain. When he came back after he got them to represent that he would never bow to anybody but his throne ever again.

25:55

Holly: I mean, and Feyre’s pussy apparently. Well, there we go. There's another thing I missed.

25:58

Harley: It’s still not up there with the soup. The soup is my favorite.

26:05

Holly: I think Hybern being a human is worse than the soup.

26:09

Harley: Yeah, but the soup is just randomly ridiculous and funny. And the fact that you went full tilt into what is a soup before we identified exactly where you were not understanding that. Anyway, I think we should probably wrap it up here more or less, I think there's no way to wrap it up in a way that's not open-ended, one because you have not read all of the books in the overall series, just the main trilogy, and she does have add-ons that add to the story and things like that. I also think if you've read her most recent book, which is not part of this series, it's part of her Crescent City books, she appears to be developing a multiverse. So, there's lots of interesting fan theories about that. My favorite of which is that Amren is an avenging angel from our universe, like an Old Testament Angel. Super cool. Like there's actually a whole stack of fan theories, I could go down a whole rabbit hole and probably do another hour or more of fan theories and stuff.

27:07

Holly: So, maybe this is a really good time to plug our Patreon.

27:11

Harley: If you want to hear me bang on about ACOTAR fan theories for a while, Holly might…

27:15

Holly: Holly will peace out and you can have this one as a Harley-only exclusive on our Patreon page.

27:21

Harley: I was gonna say more nicely than that, but sure. If you care or are interested in want to hear it, then join our Patreon and let me know, there's a few other theories around the multiverse and stuff. But like I said, Amren being the avenging angel is my favorite. And there's a few like, things that show that could be a valid theory. But alas, I cannot talk about those things without spoiling multiple novels for people, multiple series for people. So, we'll hide that behind a paywall. Also, yeah, I can't necessarily get into any more detail about lots of the other things that have happened without, I think veering off into stuff that you haven't read, which I feel like I've already done a little bit of but hopefully not too much.

28:07

Holly: I don't even remember the name of the characters from this book. Do you actually think I'm going to remember the spoilers?

28:13

Do you want to spend another two hours still talking about this?

28:15

Holly: Okay, I'll be quiet.

28:17

Harley: I was like, I thought you wanted to be done. But if you want me to keep going, I will.

28:22

Holly: I’ll peace out earlier than expected.

28:26

Harley: So, we're gonna kind of wrap it up here. Obviously, we I would say that we both have mixed feelings. I just have mixed feelings that lean more positive, and you have mixed feelings that lean more negative. So, Holly hates ACOTAR, feel free to tell her what you think about that in the comments on all of our social media platforms because like I said earlier, engagement is engagement. But no death threats. Doxing, death threats, and like, swatting people 100% wrong all the time.

28:55

Holly: Blood diamonds, figuratively not literally. But literal diamonds, please. Oh, well, there we go. That's the fourth, fifth I don't know eight things…

29:07

Harley: If you send her an ethical diamond and tell her it's a death threat, I'm sure she'll pick it apart supposed to be a ruby halfway through.

29:16

Holly: I'll take it and send you a note back that's like ‘Ah, sorry. This is meant to be a ruby, try again.’ Death threatened not accepted. Thanks for the diamond.

29:23

Harley: Chances are good. She'll be like, ‘Oh, Harley, I got a like a blood diamond. It's a death threat.’ And I'll be like, ‘wasn't it a ruby?’ and that's when she'll remember that she should write you a note. Cause Hybern and the soup.

29:37

Holly: Yeah, not a Hybern soup.

29:42

Harley: Definitely not, that’s cannibalism. And we're not doing Silence of the Lambs.

29:45

Holly: Well, he did put a few people in a cauldron.

29:49

Harley: Yeah, but not to eat. At no point was eating part of that plan.

29:53

Holly: Just a visualization of that. Okay, another thing that I've interpreted right. It's a cauldron.

30:02

Harley: Full of eternity not fucking, like, herbs and spices.

30:08

Holly: What does eternity even look like?

30:10

Harley: Not herbs and spices! It's a cauldron when it is put together, but like, it literally is disintegrating the universe when it falls apart. How many cauldrons have you seen to cook in that are world-destroying?

30:23

Holly: Well, none, but it's still a cauldron.

30:28

Harley: Yeah, this is not the good soup meme.

30:32

Holly: Holly hates ACOTAR. Harley hates Holly right about now.

30:37

Harley: I feel like this is the episode that like if you've enjoyed this, this is us at our most—

30:41

Holly: Like, most neurotic.

30:46

Harley: if you liked this episode, in particular, you have probably found your people and we look forward to seeing you again. If you thought this episode was the most batshit and deranged thing you've ever listened to, you're not wrong.

30:58

Holly: And we probably would agree with you on that.

31:00

Harley: But we are who we are. So, I recommend not listening in the future. I really don't know what you want to do about this. There's no solution if you found this too deranged. We are who we are.

31:13

Holly: We are who we are. All right. I am absolutely calling it there. I am done with ACOTAR.

31:20

Harley: Yeah, okay, that's fair. Thank you for listening everyone. I will have that fan theories episode up and running on Patreon as soon as I can lock Holly in a room long enough to make her listen to more ACOTAR stuff.

31:31

Holly: Lucky me. Can I at least get wine?

31:33

Harley: We can do wine.

32:35

Holly: What about tequila?

32:36

Harley: Does it have to be tequila?

32:37

Holly: Doesn't have to be to tequila.

32:36

Harley: What about gin?

32:36

Holly: All right, I’ll settle for gin.

32:36

Harley: I’ll bring good gin.

32:40

Holly: In the meantime, if you did enjoy this episode, don't forget to subscribe, follow and review us. Five-star reviews really do make a difference.

31:49

Harley: They sure do. In the meantime, links to all the things will be in our show notes. You can find us on bimbo book club.com Or on all your favorite social media platforms.

32:07

Holly: And I want to see a little bit more. For behind-the-scenes access bonus episodes.

32:08

Harley: You mean like the fan theory one?

32:11

Holly: Yes, like that fan theory one. And all the other hot girl shit we have to hide behind a paywall. Subscribe to our Patreon.

32:11

Harley: Join us again next week for more books, babes, and banter. Bimbos out.

The Invisible Life of Addie LaRue Transcript

© Bimbo Media

00:03

Holly: This is Bimbo Book Club with Holly.

00:12

Harley: And Harley.

Hello, everyone and welcome to our official first episode.

00:22

Holly: This week we are doing The Invisible Life of Addie LaRue,

00:26

Harley: Which Holly was like, I think you'll really like this and I got about halfway through reading it was like I might actually have to kill you because I think you know me too well.

00:31

Holly: I loved it. I am so glad you loved it. It's definitely one of my favorites. I would say a top 10 favorite book of all time for me. Wow. I just love it. I love all the characters. She's done a really good job.

00:48

Harley: It felt, to me, like, not a first work in the she's got room to become a better author sense, but in the it felt like a book that she had taken the time to put years and years and years into, which I find is often early works of an author, because once they've got a publishing schedule and stuff, it can be hard to have a passion project like that.

01:09

Holly: Which she did. So the author is V.E. Schwab. Bear with us.

01:18

Harley: I downloaded it on Kindle and didn't look at the author's name even once.

01:22

Holly: She's also the author of a few other popular novels, including A Darker Shade of Magic. And I believe it took her 10 years to write this one. And throughout those decades, she was talking about it quite a bit. So, it was a highly anticipated novel when it was finally published. And it did cop some criticism, because I feel like the author potentially hyped up a little bit too much. But as far as I'm concerned, you can't hype it up enough. It's amazing. Everyone should read it.

01:57

Harley: To be honest, though, I think that some of the stuff in it is, I guess, not necessarily for readers, but lovers of art. Like, one of the quotes that I highlighted in the book was, ‘Books, she has found, are a way to live a thousand lives.’ And that's something that, as a reader, I love and I really kind of identify with. But if you don't particularly understand the concept of losing yourself in art, I don't know that you would have the same love of that book.

02:24

Holly: The whole novel just feels like a beautiful love letter to art and the process of making art and leaving a legacy of an idea, and the absolute power of an idea. So for those of you who may not have read the book, it's essentially about a girl, Addie, a boy, Henry, and the devil, Luc. And, I guess, the idea that, can life be considered valuable if it can't leave an impact or a legacy on the world directly?

02:56

Harley: Yeah, so it plays into two themes. One is the deal with the devil and what do you truly desire? And the other is that sense of your place in the world and where you belong, and how much of that is in relation to how you see yourself through other people. And I think we see that both in Henry, and in Addie, who have very different results to their deal. So their deals are a little bit more complicated. But the simple version is that Addie’s deal leads to her becoming invisible. So people forget she exists as soon as she leaves the room. And Henry is almost too visible, he's got a gravitational pull as a result of his deal where everybody just sees their idea of the perfect person in him, and gravitate towards him. So he is more visible than ever, and she is less visible than ever.

03:52

Holly:

I think this is such an interesting way of using the word invisible, because that's not what you expect, but she is invisible.

04:00

Harley: So we start essentially with Addie at the beginning of her deal. So she is at the, I guess, present point of the novel. She's about 300 years old. So she makes her deal in 1700s France.

04:17

Holly: Yeah, I think it's 1716, 1714. Something like that. At a little, very small town.

04:23

Harley: That adds up. Yeah, so a little country village in France, and she's wishing for a bigger life or more in her life.

04:30

Holly: To not be owned by her husband, she wants freedom.

04:35

Harley: And she actually realizes later in the book that one of the ways around that is if she could have wished to be a boy.

04:40

Holly: Yeah, she definitely could have.

04:42

Harley: Because particularly at that point in history, a woman's role was essentially to get married, have babies, and not exist in the world, except as a vessel for hopefully more sons. But she has a kind of that artist's desire for adventure and so she makes a deal with the devil, not the devil, but a devil. So, kind of crossroads, demon, old God.

05:09

Holly: Even though she was expressly told not to pray to the gods who answer after dark, and Luc is a God who answered after dark, and his imagery is just really beautiful.

05:21

Harley: So in a moment of desperation, she does pray after dark and Lucien appears. And he appears with the face of her dream man, so this kind of imaginary perfect man she has created for herself in her sketchbooks, which is actually on track for—one of the really interesting things about, devil mythology versus something angel mythology is that traditionally, angels actually appear as terrifying. Like their first words in the Bible, far more even than like, ‘Praise God,’ or things like that, the amount of times that in the Old Testament, ‘Fear not,’ basically, like, ‘Do not be afraid’ appears as an angel’s appearing being like, ‘Don't shit yourself in terror, it's fine. I'm a good guy,’ appears constantly. So actual angels, like the good guys in those kinds of things often actually appear as completely terrifying. Whereas the beings that appear as something lovely are often the devils or the darker fae, the things that are not so traditionally good. Depends on the mythology, obviously, from an angels and demons standpoint, the evil ones, but they're not always evil, of course. And I think we see that in Luc.

06:40

Holly: He’s a very complex character. I mean, they're all very well-built-out complex characters in their own rights. But I think Luc in particular, is really well done.

06:51

Harley: And I think tends more towards kind of fae mythology, then say, an angels and demons thing, which makes sense, because he's part of a—so we're kind of introduced to the idea of the gods that answer after dark through a character in the village, Estelle, who is, I guess, for lack of a better term, the village witch, who still prays to the old gods. So he's very much introduced in a way that is that old superstition, and that kind of fae-esque mythology.

07:23

Holly: Yeah, he even brings that up. So when they dine together, hundreds of years later, or 100 years later, the food appears in front of her and she sits down not wanting to eat, and he actually addresses it. He says, ‘I'm not saying you can eat it, it's not poisoned, it's not going to trap you, you can just eat the food because it's lovely food. And how beautiful is this decadence that we get to enjoy?’

07:43

Harley: I mean, they don't go hugely into his mythology, because it's not about him. But he very much is complex in that way of something like a fae or a crossroads demon. But we do get into a little bit more about the idea of that deal with the devil. So traditionally, a deal with the devil is 10 years. So you get 10 years of sheer brilliance—or a crossroads demon at any rate—and you have to face the demons, the hellhounds, or whatever. And this is something that you find in real-world mythology in terms of things like if you look into something like the 27 Club, and there's a lot of stuff around, Have they made deals with the devil to become so successful, obviously, all at 17? But those kinds of people who've become successful out of nowhere, and then have very sudden, often violent deaths is very much that traditional mythology, that we get within the book. So Addie, her deal essentially leaves her immortal. So, she gets to live as many lifetimes as she likes, until she's prepared to give up her soul. But she is unable to make a mark on the world, so to speak, whereas Henry's deal is for a year.

08:53

Holly: Yes. So, when Henry made his deal, he was seconds away from committing suicide. And he didn't even really believe that this was happening because he had drunk a lot of alcohol. He had taken uppers. And he was out of his mind. He was unsure whether this was actually happening or not, whether it was hallucination. So he flippantly said, ‘One year,’ it was his choice, which is a point of contest later.

09:22

Harley: But yeah, I mean, it almost has that thing of when Addie made her deal, there was some stuff that she was flippant about in terms of choosing her words, or not kind of necessarily drilling down to the real specifics of what she wanted beyond freedom.

09:36

Holly: Well, she didn't know, she simply didn't know how to articulate it.

09:40

Harley: Yeah, but I do think it's that thing of the like, because the reason why I say this is because she understood, she believed that she was making a deal. And she took the moment seriously, she just hadn't really thought about what she truly wanted. Whereas for Henry, in that very modern perspective, he was like, ‘Oh, yeah, whatever, this guy is just making shit up to get me to stop looking at the ledge with a little too much eagerness.’ And it wasn't until later on that he realized that no, no, I actually made a deal with the devil. And I probably should have taken that more seriously.

10:13

Holly: He should have asked for way more shit. Right, I could have had 10 years, I only asked for one. What a fool.

10:18

Harley: What a fool. But I do also think that we only get a very brief look at the deal between Luc and Henry. And I think part of the reason why he got a year was because Luc was using Henry to get to Addie.

10:35

Holly: So, there's this beautiful moment where Addie and Henry meet for the first time. Henry runs a bookshop. And Addie steals a book from his store. He runs out after her. And then in the end, it's just like, ‘Oh, keep it.’ Who would have stolen a very battered, old, classic in a different language, just keep it? The next day, she goes back, and she wants to swap it for another book. And we have this beautiful moment where Henry goes, ‘Wow, that's bold of you.’ Addie’s going, ‘Well, what do you mean?’ trying to play coy. Then Henry says, ‘I remember you.’ And this is where I feel like the real story started. They've embarked on this beautiful love story. And it just feels so romantic and heartbreaking. Because we obviously know what's coming for Henry, but Addie doesn't.

11:36

Harley: Is that obvious?

10:38

Holly: I think it is pretty obvious.

11:39

Harley: I mean, you don’t know how much time.

11:42

Holly: Yeah, you don't know how much time. But you learn pretty quickly. But it feels very organic. And it's not until Addie and Luc come together again, and Luc kind of throws it in Addie’s face. ‘Do you think that I don't keep track of my charges? Do you think that I would let this happen?’

12:02

Harley: And it's a little bit naive of her because, these multiple times throughout the 300 years together, been like, ‘I might only show myself on our anniversary or on specific occasions. But do you think I'm not watching the rest of the time?’ He's given her a lot of clues that he watches her quite closely.

12:17

Holly: Yes, but he refers to her as my Adeline. Always mine, you are mine. You were the one that got away, no one will know you. Even if they could remember you, no one will know you the way that I know you. Which just ah, I love Luc. I think he's my favorite character.

12:38

Harley: Got a thing for the toxic devil boyfriend?

12:40

Holly: I really do have a thing for the toxic devil. Just the way he materializes from literal shadows. Give me some of that.

12:50

Harley: It felt like at the start of the book that it was gonna be a love story between Luc and Addie. And it was for a portion, it just didn't stop there. And it was not really about it being a love story, because, the book itself, that's just a vehicle for the real messages of the book, which I think is a little bit more complicated and fascinating and all that kind of stuff. I mentioned earlier that at one point, Addie realizes that she probably could have just asked to be a man. And that's because everybody forgets that she exists. She can do whatever she wants in the world. She's forced out of her comfort in her home because her parents don't remember who she is, like, Who the fuck is this stranger in her house? Get out.

13:38

Holly: So, it's not just that she can no longer be remembered. It's that she's been erased. No one remembers she ever existed.

13:46

Harley: And as soon as they walk away, or a door closes or things like that they forget she exists again. So she constantly has to reintroduce herself to people.

13:53

Holly: So she has this like 50 First Dates moment with potential like men throughout the book where she’ll fall in love.

13:58

Harley: I think part of that is really important because it forces her away from her home and the comfort that she's in. So it's like, Luc has obviously gone, I mean, essentially shove you out of the nest, you can't make a deal like this and then go home and play normal and just get to live a boring life.

14:17

Holly: This is literally what you asked for. The good and the bad and the hard.

14:22

Harley: So she ends up in the streets of Paris and she goes to stay in a lodging house, but they, as soon as she shuts herself in the room, forget that she exists. And so they come back in and they're like, ‘Who the fuck are you that's broken into this house? Get out.’ So she basically is forced into homelessness because she can't sign a lease, she can't be remembered long enough to have any level of safety. And she does in that scenario turn to sex work, which both gives her a kind of a pretty brutal experience initially of what sex is. She does come around later on when she has the chance for some romance, but she does have to go down and up. And I think it's kind of nice that the author hasn't shied away from the fact that that would be a reality for her. And I mean, the reality is, aside from the time period that it's in, even in modern times, she would be stuck being a street worker because she can't put an ad online because she doesn't even appear in anything. She can't even show up in photos. She can't work at a strip club, because you'd have to apply constantly and they'd still be like, ‘Who the fuck are you? Get out of our dressing room.’ So she has to work in kind of the most dangerous variation of this. And I think it's really interesting in terms of a lot of people don't talk about the kind of cycle breaking that sex work can be, but also the survival aspect of it a lot. I think it was kind of nice that she put it in there in a way that felt like, I was really, like, shoulders tense, ready for it to be a like ‘whores suck!’. But, I guess I kind of it was there partly because that was all she could do to survive. But to me, it felt like it was also there because there is this idea of the fantasy of intimacy with a man that is then taken away because they don't remember who she is. So she can only give herself away in a way that is really transactional.

16:13

Holly: I think it was very well done. I think it definitely didn't cheapen the fact that this is a reality for a lot of people, this survival work.

16:28

Harley: And I do. I think it's one of those things that, certainly as someone who has been in the industry, there is always that kind of safety net of the industry. Like if you go and do other things, whatever it is, you can always go and work at a club or pick up a private or any of that kind of stuff.

16:45

Holly: I think that mentality runs, that fuck it I'll just be a stripper mentality. Whether it's correct or not, it's there.

16:53

Harley: And I think too, the reality of knowing that you can take that leap because I think the like fuck it, I'm becoming a stripper kind of runs through society. But I say all the time, I'm like, What's the meme for fuck it, I'll become a stripper. But if I'm already a stripper, like, nobody told me I was going to work and run my own business. I work very hard. What the shit? And I feel like civilians would be like, ‘They become an escort.’ But that's just as much work, but in a different direction. Yeah, in fact, I personally would consider that more work, because it goes against my nature in the way that stripping doesn’t.

17:28

Holly: If you want an easy job, like, I'm sure McDonald's is hiring. Sex work is not an easy job. It is quick money. It's very fast money. It is not easy money. And I think that's the difference.

17:43

Harley: I think also, it's an accessible job. So it's easy money in the sense that it's money that is available or accessible to a far wider range of people than traditional paths to a lot of money or significant money, which is why often is part of people's generational wealth breaking and like generational shifts, poverty breaking, wealth creation, and breaking those cycles of poverty, because it is something that you can be trailer trash and go into the strip club and learn to hustle and really make something of yourself and pay your way through schooling or through starting a business or through a creative pursuit or things in order to finance escaping from that cycle of being poor or whatever, just as much as you can come in super, super rich, and hustle just as hard and make just as much as the next person I work with. It's very much an equalizer in that environment.

18:45

Holly: But I think also—

18:47

Harley: I mean, the money I make, and I would argue the money that you make, like we've both got regulars we like I've got relationships with agents, I've got all that stuff that requires being remembered.

18:55

Holly: Absolutely it requires being remembered. It also requires communication, which is another thing that Addie can't do. She can't text, she can't write. She can't take a photo, like you said before. She can't do anything. She can't even say her own name, which wouldn't be an issue because we all have stage names.

19:16

Harley: But she can't put an ad online and work privately through that. Because she can't type up the ad and she can't get someone to remember her long enough to type it up for her. So she's very much trapped in that, very much survival, she can't use sex work in a way that is beneficial to her beyond just a straight-up exchange. Give me money, get laid, peace out.

19:41

Holly: She's very much backed into a corner and it's kind of a choice between sex work, and thievery. And it becomes an issue with Henry later because he is very much against her stealing things, but it's hard for him to understand.

20:00

Harley: She doesn't have a bank account, she can't do anything. She also talks about how aside from two items that Luc arranges for her to not lose, everything kind of disappears when she's not looking. So she can't hold on to memories, or trinkets of memories. So I mean, obviously, memory and memory loss is a big thing. Addie remembers everything. But everybody around her forgets her the second she's gone. But Luc, at one point, says something about ideas are wild, and they're harder to control. And Addie takes that and runs with it.

20:36

Holly: She absolutely does. So while she can't directly leave a mark on the world, she does plant a lot of seeds. And then throughout the book, we see these seeds coming into bloom essentially, where there's a bar that she planned with a guy on a napkin throughout a drunken night. And then a few months later, walking down the street sees the sign for this bar.

21:03

Harley: And I think the book is broken up into sections where you have little museum notes and things like that on sketches or artworks or things that are all inspired by Addie, like, obviously, nobody makes the connection because they're across centuries.

21:23

Holly: And so there's a beautiful quote from the book that says, ‘Stories come in so many forms: in charcoal, and in song, in paintings, poems, films. And books.’ And I think there's a really beautiful distinction throughout the book, where she has planted the seed of an idea, and allowed someone else to bring her creative vision into life, versus other pieces of work where she has been the muse.

21:51

Harley: I think one of the big things is, there is an artist at one stage who, she wakes up and he's doing a sketch of her in the bed. Versus at the very start of the book, she's with a musician who she plays a few bars for him, and he gets sucked into it, and then starts jamming with her basically. And then she disappears. And he's just left with notes of this song. And we run into him later in the book. And he's like, ‘It occurred to me as though it was in a dream. I don't remember writing this, but I would wake up and I'd have bars on napkins, and when I put them all together, I had this amazing song. It's this thing that’s blown me up in the world.’

22:27

Holly: So they essentially wrote this song together, but he doesn't remember her.

22:31

Harley: And so he doesn't even remember his participation in it. So he just wakes up, and there's songs and song lyrics in his head.

22:39

Holly: And the lyrics from this particular song, something along the lines of, ‘I'm in love with a girl that I've never met,’ or, ‘She's just from a dream.’ It's just, it's obviously an idea that he's describing. So on some level, some deep psychological level, psychological unconscious, on some deep unconscious level, she has had an impact. And it's through art.

23:15

Harley: And it is that idea that she can't be remembered, specifically. But she can leave ideas in her wake. And that the impact of an idea or the impact of a story sticks with you more than a specific memory. And I think that that's true in general. Like, obviously, it's the theme of Addie's life. I think it's true in general, I am always when people are like, ‘What did you do last week?’ I'm like, that is more than like, five minutes ago, I do not remember. But if you ask me to tell you a story about something, I remember people's stories. I always say I forget people's names, but I remember their stories. So it's like that fact recall is not there. But the idea recall, that story recall, is there so people can recall the stories that she leaves behind. And they can see the kind of ripples from that, but they can't remember her specifically. So, she does manage to leave ripples in the world and becomes a muse through 300 years of artwork.

24:07

Holly: Yeah, so she is essentially this eternal muse for centuries. And Henry's friend Bea is the one who kind of identifies and would like to run with this idea that there's this woman who is appearing throughout history and all these various art forms from across the world. That doesn't make sense. But the same seven freckles which are referenced a lot, like almost too much, appear in all of these images, and they are obviously Addie’s seven freckles, which are her seven stars.

24:47

Harley: Yeah, so they look like her constellation across her face. So they appear as constellations or things throughout drawings or paintings or whatever. So, there's some abstract ones where it’s the night sky or whatever. And then there's some more direct ones, but nothing that's like specifically showing her face or like, obviously is Addie because that's where the magic comes in, of her deal. So a big part of the book is the love story between her and Luc and the idea that he's the only one who can truly see her. And that she doesn't matter to the world. She doesn't exist to the world except to him. So, he uses this as a way of trying to get her because essentially, the deal that they've made, she lives until she gives up her soul to him. So, it's in his best interests to have her go, ‘Screw this, I'm done.’ And he can have her soul. But she's a girl after my own heart, and she's like, ‘Now that you want it, you can't have it, I’m going to be stubborn and stick it out.’ So she initially kind of uses the power of ideas or making her mark through being a muse to spite him. And then it becomes her way of surviving through centuries of being invisible to everybody except him. So she can wake up next to somebody and they can be like, ‘I'm so sorry, I do not remember you. Like I must have been so drunk, because I don't remember you at all.’ And like that embarrassment and awkwardness of like, as soon as the door closes, they've forgotten she exists.

26:23

Holly: Or worse when they wake up. And she hasn't been engaging in sex work, but they press coins into her palm anyway.

26:31

Harley: But yeah, that she's not memorable, but then she can walk through a museum and see the fact that she's real. She's like, I'm here. I exist. I have mattered in some capacity.

26:43

Holly: And that'd be so frustrating.

26:44

Harley: Yeah, and I mean, that craziness of constantly repeating those circles and not existing.

26:51

Holly: And we see when Henry introduced it to his friends. And every time they have the same thing to say about her face, every time, would just be so frustrating.

27:04

Harley: And we see a little bit of that craziness in Henry trying to process it, because they find out about each other fairly quickly, that they both have a deal of some kind. And Addie is very upfront about her kind of thing. So she's very much like, ‘Your friends will continuously forget I exist. And it is what it is. And we've just got to roll with it.’ And he's like, trying to unpack it and be like, ‘But how do you not remember her?’ And she's like, ‘You will go crazy. You just need to accept it and roll with it.’ Because of course, it's the first time he's had to deal with people being like, ‘Oh, nice to meet you. I've heard so much about you.’

27:39

Holly: But I've met you 35 times already.

27:42

Harley: I just went to the bathroom and came back and went, Oh.

27:44

Holly: Where'd you come from?

27:45

Harley: There’s somebody else at our table. Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool.

I think that's really fascinating. One of the things that's really powerful about this book is the idea of being seen, and the people who see us and how they matter. And you do get that in their kind of Henry versus Luc thing. Luc obviously sees her and remembers her and has seen her for 300 years and all that kind of stuff. But Henry is the first person who's remembered her.

28:13

Holly: With Luc, he asks, he visits her every year on the anniversary and asks for her soul. And she turns him down, turns him down, turns him down. So, he starts to stretch out the gaps in between when he comes to visit her, and does horrible things like take her through the darkness and dumping her somewhere else after she's built a life in one location, dumps her in a different location. But then at some point, he changes up his tactic. And so he starts wining her and dining her and doting on her and trying to facilitate this relationship with her without actually asking her for her soul for 40 years or something doesn't ask her. And then when he feels like he's worn her down, he asks her, and she feels so betrayed by this and she feels like, he was playing this long game with me. And so we want to hate him and we want to be so angry for her because she feels humiliated and betrayed and because it's been going on for so long. But at some point during that time, Luc has also fallen for her as much as a devil made of shadows can fall for a human, I guess.

29:28

Harley: No, I think he falls for her completely. And I think this is the thing that she realizes is that he has shown his hand.

29:33

Holly: He has shown his hand.

29:36

Harley: He has power over her but she has power over him.

29:39

Holly: Yes, and he's lonely, too. It’s a lonely existence being the night the God of the shadows and the God of the night.

29:48

Harley: There were a lot of red flags right there, Holly. ‘I can fix him I promise.’ Don’t just see the handsome shadow man, see all the red flags surrounding him.

29:57

Holly: But oh my god, I would love a life that's just enjoying art and good food and exploring the world with my demon boyfriend. And looking at me like, oh, my ultimate goal in life is just to make and consume art. And if I had to give up making art for a demon boyfriend who could just dote on me, and we could just enjoy good sex, great food and art for forever, his way or the highway, right? I mean, I've been in relationships like that before.

30:38

Harley: And were they good relationships? What did I say about red flags?

30:45

Holly: Well, I mean, he's made of shadows, so I don't think there's any red on him. I'm getting a very disapproving look over here. I know I don't have great taste in demons.

31:00

Harley: Great taste in demons, just terrible taste in love interests.

31:04

Holly: I’m not going to go and make a deal with the devil or anything. No crossroads around here.

31:10

Harley: Can I write the terms of your deal if you decide to make a deal with a crossroads demon?

31:20

Holly: Yeah, I'll allow it.

31:21

Harley: Because I went on a schtick about genie mythology. So I will not ever make a wish on a genie, if I, tomorrow, found a ring or lamp—

31:04

Holly: Fuck no, we don’t fuck with genies.

31:04

Harley: But you’ll fuck with a crossroads demon?

31:34

Holly: He's made of shadow and he's hot.

31:38

Harley: What if it's a hot genie? What if you had a handsome man in a ring?

31:42

Holly: No. It's Luc. Specifically. It's Luc specifically.

31:47

Harley:  So on that note, would you ever make a deal with the devil? And what would you do it for?

31:54

Holly: What was the last five minutes of conversation about? No, I don't know. Getting laid, good food, and art.

32:01

Harley: Yeah, 10 years?

32:02

Holly: Absolutely. I probably want more than 10 years, though, but maybe not 300. I think I would get a bit bored. But there's always that out, because when she's done, she can just be like, I'm done. You can have my soul now. She's just stubborn. I feel like I'm not that stubborn. And I’d get to a point where I was like, I've seen enough. I've done enough. You can have my soul now. Be nice to it. I was so nice to you. Would you do a deal with a crossroads demon?

32:33

Harley: I think there's part of me that is tempted. It would be nice to know that everything would be guaranteed to work out. But, I think in that traditional sense of a crossroads demon probably not. But then again, if anybody could win over a bunch of hellhounds for their soul, that would be me. So, fun fact, Hades, your hellhounds are now  my hellhounds. Also, my soul is intact.

32:57

Holly: I don’t doubt that for a second.

32:58

Harley: You can enjoy your work, shadow lover, and I'll just take over the underworld. It's not on purpose. I just control the hellhounds.

33:06

Holly: And back to Addie.

33:09

Harley: Honestly, the ending of that book very much has the, guess who now controls the solar system?

33:24

Holly: So Luc fucked up, one, by showing his hand. Two, also, he taught Addie too much.

33:24

Harley: Oh, yeah, he definitely taught Addie too much. So he taught her the power of words and the power of terminology. So to save Henry, Addie goes and changes the deal that she has with Luc because deals can't be broken, but they can be changed. So the terminology changes and she changes her deal, giving essentially giving herself over to Luc for as long

33:49

Holly: as he will have her, which is a little play there. Because she's assuming that at some point, he's gonna get bored of her. And when he does get bored of her, she gets her soul. She gets herself back. Yeah.

33:49

Harley: Which I think like I think there's two levels of so the first thing of like, undermining Luc, feeling like he's maybe not all-powerful is when they do run into each other. So Henry and Addie, and they're like, ‘Our deals cancel each other out.’ And they initially think that it's accidental, that it's not on purpose, but they've just run into something that he missed in the deals that he made with each of them individually, that each of their individual deals meant that, in order for them to work, basically, Henry had to be able to remember her. But they also realized through that, that she can literally make her mark. I mean, obviously she's realized throughout the book that she can make her mark through other people. But they realized that if she uses Henry's hand, so she's controlling his hands, but he's the one that’s, say applying paint to a wall, that the paint stays the marks stay. And so throughout that process of them together, she starts telling Henry her story. So by the end of the book, Luc has essentially worked Addie to give up her soul to him and to erase her name from the world. And by the end of the book, she's managed to display her name to the entire world through Henry as a vehicle for that. But also in freeing Henry, she's managed to change her deal so that at the end of the day, she's going to have her name, like her name, specifically, and her story specifically, be remembered and marked on the entire world, but then also escape her deal with Luc where she gets to own her soul at the end. So it's kind of is that she does emerge as though I guess, muse triumphant?

35:43

Holly: Absolutely. She's the winner in all of this. We assume.

35:49

Harley: Not a bad way to spend your waiting years, being wined and dined until he gets bored of you.

35:54

Holly: You just told me that's not a healthy thing to aspire to.

35:57

Harley: But I'm saying if you're already stuck in a shitty situation, better to have a good shitty situation no, I would not sign up for the initial deal, Holly.

36:05

Holly: I wouldn't give up my soul.

36:08

Harley: Well, Addie also isn't giving up her soul in the end.

36:10

Holly: Yeah, but she was stubborn.

36:13

Harley: We were talking about the stubborn bits where you were like, I’d probably get bored before 300 years and I’d give up my soul. So we were still in that early bit. I'm saying, if I've already lost my soul, and I've already been stuck with it, and I was trying to get it back, and I knew I had to suffer through maybe 300 more years of putting up with shit before I can get my soul back. At least I'm getting wined and dined for those 300 years. It's a different thing. Adjacent but different.

36:35

Holly: I guess the other question is, will Luc get bored of her? Or is he just so possessive?

36:46

Harley: I think it's also about winning for him, though. And he feels like he's won. So he'll enjoy his winning for a while, but eventually that won't feel like enough.

36:53

Harley: Again, he's a toxic boyfriend, Holly.

36:53

Holly: Made of shadows.

36:59

Harley: I get it. Shadows are hot and all that.

37:02

Holly: Still toxic, but he gives her a house.

37:06

Harley: I mean, I wouldn't mind a house. Oh, I’d love a house.

37:08

Holly: Who wants to give me a house?

37:10

Harley: Especially like in the middle of New Orleans. Beautiful. It's prime real estate, I mean, unless it’s hurricane season.

37:17

Holly: I guess he did get grumpy and burn the thing down there.

37:23

Harley: Again, toxic. When I get what I want, you can have a house. The second you cross me, I'm burning that fucker to the ground? Sounds like a few men I’ve known.

37:32

Holly: Hmm.

37:35

Harley: Anyway, did you have any other stuff that you wanted to go over? I feel like this is just one of those beautiful complex things where you can say so much and then still feel like you've covered nothing. You can talk for hours. And like, there's more.

37:49

Holly: There's so much to this, though. There's 300 years of stuff.

37:56

Harley: But I think also there's such a complexity around the idea of memory and the power of ideas and how we all kind of feel invisible. And we're all trying to make our mark on the world. And how much impact do we have? And do all of us have to have our name splashed in neon lights in order to matter?

38:15

Holly: Hmm. And that's exactly it. So, throughout the novel Luc mentions, he asks, ‘Do you think life has any value if one doesn't leave some mark upon the world?’ I think we only see a few of the deals that he's made. We don't see all of the deals. But every deal that we do see has been an artist. And they want their 10 years.

38:40

Harley: Or their time, 5, 10 years in the book. That's just a traditional timeline.

38:45

Holly: And some of the things that Luc just says throughout the book are really, really beautiful. Like at one point, he says, ‘Because time is cruel to all, and crueler still to artists. Because visions weaken, and voices wither, and talent fades.... Because happiness is brief, and history is lasting, and in the end... everyone wants to be remembered.’ I believe he says that, it's like a taunt to Addie. But she's like, ‘Yeah, bet.’ And becomes the eternal muse.

39:16

Harley: I think too. I highlighted just the Latin version of this. Basically, it translates to, ‘I shall either find a way or make one,’ which I really feel I could be Addie’s motto where it's like, so I've been put into this deal that was not what I actually wanted. It's the letter of the deal, but not the spirit of the request. However, in order to spite Luc, and to make an impact on the world, I'll find a way or I'll make one. And I think fairly early in the book, 38% of the way through the book according to my Goodreads notes, but it's so it's in the first third of the book,  just over the first third, it is that point in the book where Addie starts to realize that she can make an impact through ideas, even if she can't make an impact directly. And I think that that very much sums up her character, even at the end, she's like, ‘I'll find a way or I'll make a way to get my soul back and to get out of this deal.’ But she doesn't actually try to go, ‘You can have my soul just give Henry his back.’ And that's where Luc goes, ‘I can't get rid of a deal.’ So he gets to like Henry and ends up being able to live his life out. But she has to stay with Luc. So yeah, she makes her way.

40:36

Holly: She does make her way. And she's very resilient throughout, whether it's survival sex work, or it's becoming the muse, or it's planting seeds of ideas, she is very resilient. And she's determined to leave her mark on the world. And through Henry, she does.

41:04

Harley: Yeah, well, I think not just through Henry, I think she does, through many, many artists throughout history. I think it goes back to that quote that I said, at the start of that you can live a thousand lives through books, whatever the official actual quote was, but it is that she's managed to live all of these lives by appearing as a background character or sketch that's not quite finished. She’s made 1000 marks, however, seemingly insignificant each individual one is.

41:38

Holly: And I think your use of the word character there is really spot on. She does talk about how she studies the different socioeconomic classes, I guess, and is able to imitate their mannerisms to get him through certain doors, and get in certain ways. And she's listening to the names and she's listening to who’s of note, who's in town, who's not in town, what names she can use to get into certain rooms. And she uses that to her advantage. And she's playing those characters. But ultimately, the art that's been created of her, is her in its rawest form. It's not that character, it is still Addie.

42:19

Harley: I think too, in terms of the idea of character and reality and fiction. So when The Invisible Life of Addie LaRue is published within the novel, and the novel within the novel shares the name, but when Henry publishes his book about his life, he publishes it as a work of fiction. So this is one of the things where his friend, who had the thesis about this muse that keeps appearing with the seven stars across her face or whatever, when he's finished this work of fiction, she is like, ‘Ah, I inspired you. I want credit at the start.’ And I think his only note at the beginning, or his author's note at the start of the book, is simply ‘I remember you.’ That's his last message to Addie.

43:06

Holly: How beautiful, lovely bookend from the inscription in the book in the book.

43:09

Harley: Yeah.

43:12

Holly: It's very important that there are no other author names on it is literally just her name on the cover. And it's Addie, not Adeline, because she wants that name. Adeline was the old her.

43:27

Harley: But also Adeline is the version of herself that has been forced upon her and Addie is who she chooses to be.

43:33

Holly: Luc also refers to her as Adeline. And never by Addie, I don't believe.

43:39

Harley: Which I think comes back to the idea that as perfect as he seems on paper, he doesn't truly see her. He doesn't pick apart the details of their final deal, because he thinks that he's won. And he knows her better than anyone, but he doesn't actually see her.

43:33

Harley: I think one of the really powerful things about, just circling back to that ‘I remember you’ saying, there's a point in the book where she's like, three words are so powerful. And it's really interesting, because usually in stories ‘I love you’ are the three most powerful words anyone can say and all that kind of stuff. And I actually think ‘I remember you’ or ‘I see you’ are so powerful. And especially for her. It's like she's been told that people have fallen in love with her over and over and over again. But to be seen, and to be remembered, is so much more significant. And I think it's a really fascinating take on those three most powerful words, maybe being something other than what we expect.

44:35

Holly: Little side note, did you know that the first three words that you said to me after we didn't see each other for several years was I remember you,

44:44

Harley: was it?

44:45

Holly: Yeah, because I came up to you and we were backstage waiting for like tech rounds and stuff that was like, Hey, I don't know if you remember me and you didn't even let me finish my sentence. You're like, ‘I remember you.’ Different vibe.

44:54

Harley: Of course I remember you. Because you were like, ‘Oh, now, that you’re so important.’ I was like, ‘I'm not important.’ Also, even if I was that important, which again, I'm not, I'm not an asshole. Jesus. Anyway, look how powerful those words have been for us.

45:12

Holly: So powerful. Look at us now.

45:14

Harley: I mean, I love you, too. But I also remember you.

44:54

Holly: And I see you.

45:19

Holly: Any final thoughts on The Invisible Life of Addie LaRue. Would you recommend it? And who would you recommend it to, if you do recommend it?

45:27

Harley: So yes, I would recommend it. And I would recommend it to people who already appreciate art, and who maybe care about making any impact in the world on how they matter, in a creative sense. I think if you've ever lost yourself in a novel, you'll probably like this one. And, if you've ever felt insignificant, you probably will like it as well.

45:52

Holly: Yeah, it is a very beautiful novel. I think if you don't have an appreciation of art, you will lose a good chunk of the story.

46:00

Harley: I think so much of it is rooted in the idea of like that eternal muse, the power of ideas and being more powerful than a lot of people give it credit for. So if you appreciate those things, you will appreciate the way that she has so beautifully woven those concepts into her novel in the way that she's pulled them together. If you don't appreciate those things, a lot of the novel I think would just be banging on about bullshit you don't care about. And I know that's a really broad audience to leave it out, too, because most of us care about that stuff. But not everybody does. And that's cool, too. I guess everyone's entitled to be wrong.

46:38

Holly: I wouldn't say it's a heavy read. But it's also not a light read. There are complex characters, it has complex themes, it is very well done. But it does take some brain space to keep everything.

46:50

Harley: And that's really where I get more specific about the kind of people who would like to read it is, if you like reading airport fiction, it's probably not necessarily like, maybe you would like it as a foray into something that's a little bit more. I don't want to say heavy, but complex is the word.

47:07

Holly: It's got depth. There's very little sex. Like there's no sex scenes.

47:14

Harley: I don't remember.

47:15

Holly: There’s the implied sex. But there's no real sex scene. So it's not something if you're a big smut reader, it's probably…

47:23

Harley: No, no, no, it's not at all smut. So there is sex involved in a lot of stuff that she actually focuses much more on the idea of feeling used versus connected, which is, we all can experience both those things, or neither of those things or whatever. But it's more about that emotional experience of physically being with someone, as opposed to getting into the nitty-gritty of the physical act. There's no throbbing.

47:52

Holly: Definitely no throbbing. You will be taken on a deliciously heartbreaking journey through a range of complex emotions. So be prepared for that. But it is beautiful.

48:09

Harley: Yeah, I think it's beautifully done.

48:17

Harley: Okay, so that's it for this week's episode.

48:09

Harley: And this week, especially, we just wanted to take an extra minute to say thank you for making it this far. While this isn't the first time we've sat down to record a podcast, The Invisible Life of Addie LaRue, in some ways, was a perfect first episode, because this podcast really was an idea that refused to be forgotten. And like all creative pursuits, it's been a little bit of a daunting thing to release into the world.

48:42

Holly: It's especially scary since it's outside the skill set we've spent the whole past decade working on. We have to open ourselves up to being awkward and new with an audience. So we want to thank you for listening and for being that audience, and for joining us on that journey. We hope you enjoyed it, and we hope you're still enjoying it when we smash out 100 or even 1000 episodes.

49:00

Harley: We've already seen the improvement on the back end, as we've recorded and re-recorded episodes, that doesn't mean that we think we're anywhere near done getting better. In fact, we don't actually think you should ever stop improving. So if there's something you loved or something that you think was a swing and a miss, please feel free to jump over to our Instagram or to our website and send us a message we would love to hear from you.

49:22

Holly: Getting a podcast off the ground is a team effort. Every subscription, every listen counts, and five-star reviews on Apple iTunes are a huge help to getting our podcast seen by the people who wil most appreciate it. So if you can take the time to leave us a positive review, we appreciate the hell out of you. We promise we're reading every single one.

49:41

Harley: If you want to see a little bit more, there will be exclusive episodes behind the scenes and other hot girl shit over on our Patreon links to all the things books, our socials etc. will be in the show notes or at www.bio.link/bimbo.

49:57

Holly: Episodes two and three are already live. Go listen to those and we'll see you next time for more books, babes, and banter.

50:04

Harley: Bimbos out.

Verity (Bonus Chapter Edition) Transcript

© Bimbo Media

00:03

Holly: This is Bimbo Book Club with Holly.

00:12

Harley: And Harley.

00:14

Holly: Just because there is really no avoiding massive spoilers on this one. So obviously every episode has a bit of a spoiler warning, but this one more than most. So, rather than doing this at the end, at the start, how would you describe Verity?

00:29

Harley: Oh, how would I describe it? It's very much a high-quality airport read with emotional roller coaster elements to it.

00:29

Holly: I think that's fair.

00:46

Harley: I don't know that I necessarily recommend this to a particular kind of reader over another one. But I would say it's like an airport read, where it's gripping enough that you can get sucked into it when you're stuck on a plane and you're uncomfortable and all that kind of thing. But I don't know that I'd be like, oh my god, she's the best writer I've ever read.

01:05

Holly: So, for both of us, this was our first-time reading Colleen Hoover. Apparently, this particular book, Verity, is the gateway drug for a lot of people into Colleen Hoover. But she does remind me a lot of Jodi Picoult, in the way that I'm sure she's quite formulaic in the way that she writes. So, I can imagine if you read several books back, you're probably going to get to see her style pretty quickly. I also read a lot of reviews that were like, ‘She's not a great writer, because she just kind of picks the most dramatic thing that could possibly happen to her character, and then makes it even worse.’

01:41

Harley: But then that becomes the argument of how do we define a great writer? I mean, Jodi Picoult, Dan Brown, Colleen Hoover, all that kind of stuff. They're not necessarily great writers, again, in that technical sense, but they're good to read.

01:57

Holly: They're easy reads. There were no profound sentences that make you stop and go, Oh my God, that is so beautifully written. But it's a good story. And it's told well, and it keeps you engaged.

02:08

Harley: And both of us kind of binge-read it as well. So, it's a good binge-read. So yeah, I don't know. Like, if you're looking for something that is going to be like, look at me, I'm so literary, maybe skip this one. But if you're looking for something that will keep you engaged through some travel, or you just want a binge read that you can see everything coming pretty well. But it's still gripping.

02:31

Holly: Yeah, there were enough misdirections and twists and things to keep you engaged. But it wasn't anything super complicated that made it a tricky read. It was a comfortable read.

02:42

Harley: You know what kind of story it is from very early on. So even though the details have some twists and turns that you're like, wow, okay. It's not like you can see everything coming. Like you said, there are a few bits there. But you know what kind of story it is very early. Which I don't think it's a bad thing. I think that's why people like formulaic writers.

03:00

Holly: So, I don't know about the rest of Colleen’s collection. But this one in particular, I would probably call a soft thriller. It had thriller elements to it, but it wasn't anything particularly confronting like a traditional thriller.

03:17

Harley: So, to sum it up, good quality, but airport fiction soft thriller.

03:23

Holly: Yeah, that sounds like you and you haven't read it. Turn this off. Right now. And stop listening. Because we are gonna spoil it.

03:30

Harley: She’s got a good mum tone, doesn’t she?

03:33

Holly: Definitely gonna spoil it.

03:35

Harley: Consider this that moment in a pirate movie where they're like, ‘Beyond here, lies certain doom’.’Except beyond here, lies certain spoilers, so I really feel like your mum tone and my pirate movie really sums us up.

03:49

Holly: I think it does. Anyway, you've been warned.

03:55

Harley: We really cannot find any other ways to warn you,

03:58

Holly: Last chance.

04:00

Harley: It's on you.

04:01

Holly: Yes, definitely, it’s on you.

04:03

Harley: From here on out it's your fault, you're asking for it.

04:06

Holly: Big question. Manuscript or letter? Which one's real?

04:10

Harley: Yeah, I don't know. The thing that I find really interesting about that, though, is the reliable narrator issue. Because we're narrated both from the perspective of Lowen, who clearly has a thing for Jeremy from before the actual plot of the story starts like the very first chapter. So, at what point is she seeing what she wants to see?

04:35

Holly: So essentially, there's three narrators here. We've got Lowen. Then we've got manuscript Verity, and then we've got letter Verity.

04:46

Harley: So, Lowen would be kind of our main narrator. She's the character that we follow from the very beginning of the book, and she's the character whose head we're inside. However, we do get Verity’s kind of autobiography. And then the letter that then makes the autobiography maybe less biographical?

05:07

Holly: Yes.

05:11

Harley: So, we know that it’s a pretty intense read, pretty much from the start, it starts off with someone getting their head run over.

05:20

Holly: Yeah, so essentially, a guy was too busy on his phone and stepped in front of a truck and got knocked over. And then his head got popped off by a tire.

05:33

Harley: She goes into immense detail, and then it's just, like, forgotten. So this is how Lowen, and Jeremy are initially brought together before they know anything about each other, or what's going to happen in the book. He's just a handsome stranger who's helped her and she's covered in blood. So, he lends her his shirt, I guess gives her his shirt. It's that meet-cute instant connection, except that it's framed by a guy who's just been run over, and she's covered in blood. And then from there, we go into her meeting with her agent, and being offered a deal to write the rest of this super, super famous author’s books because she's incapacitated. And that's Verity. In the meeting, of course, the handsome stranger turns out to be Verity’s husband. It really is a romance novel meet-cute, except that there's this aggressively violent beginning. And then, that's just never addressed again.

06:28

Holly: Yeah, I was thinking about this, the fact that he was too busy looking at his phone that he got hit by an unsuspecting truck. Is that foreshadowing something about Lowen, are we seeing what she wants to see? And then is blindsided by the letter. Or am I just reading too much into it?

06:49

Harley: She alludes a lot to like, some people just have tragic stuff happen to them all the time. That's the whole thing with Verity’s family is that they're just people that bad things happen to. And so, it's kind of that thing from the start of, okay, so here's the thing that Lowen and Jeremy have in common that they're both the people that bad things happen to, and they just weather the storm. They're the ones that have to survive at all. But no, it's not really going into–it, in retrospect, feels like just–I mean, like that critique that you talked about earlier, where people say that she often chooses the most awful thing to happen, or the most dramatic thing to happen. And it feels like she just wanted to really dramatically put Lowen in a position of being that helpless, like, I need a man to save me kind of thing. But like, I'm the victim or I'm you know, helpless one. All of these horrible things have happened to me. And it's not just like, I was on my way to my meeting, and I'm just having a disaster of a day and my heel broke. I spilled coffee everywhere. And he's a nice guy. It's like, no, no, someone got run over. But they're not important to the story. So, moving on.

07:53

Holly: But her morning was like that because she was leaving the house for the first time since her mom passed away a few months prior or a few weeks, I'm not sure. And she had had a bit of a shit morning. And her agent had deliberately told her half an hour earlier than when she had to be there because he was anticipating that this would happen, well not that someone was going to have their head exploded, but that things were going to go wrong for her and she’d be late.

08:19

Harley: again, feels like she's that character that's like, Oh my god, I'm always frazzled and running late and life's a disaster, but then she's ramped it up to mild agoraphobia and getting run over. It’s fine in terms of some sort of like, I mean, one, those things do happen. And two, I think sometimes for a story, it needs to be that dramatic. I don't know that it needed to be that dramatic for this.

08:46

Holly: I don't know if that needed to be that dramatic. No, but I think they did kind of help to pull her out of her headspace because she's, Woe is me. I've had all this shit happen to me. My mum has just died, I finally leave the house. And then bang, this happens. She's very self-absorbed. But then, when Jeremy is helping her, and he looks so sad, and she asks him, you know, What's going on? Are you okay? And he's like, I just lost my daughter a few months ago. And I think they kind of snapped her out of her like, Okay, other people have bad things happen to them, as well.

09:23

Harley: Yeah, of course. She then slips back into self-absorption. I think we see that later in the book so from here essentially, she agrees to take the contract and goes to Jeremy and Verity’s house to go through Verity’s office, see what bits of manuscripts she has written, all that kind of stuff. And in the house is Jeremy, their son Crew, and Verity who's in a comatose-ish state.

09:54

Holly: She's not comatose because she's eaten soft foods and things like that.

09:59

Harley: She's in that like vegetative state where she, I think they describe her as essentially having the brain of a very early toddler. So, she can eat soft foods or things like that. But she has to be looked after by a nurse. She can't communicate any of that kind of stuff. Very unresponsive to external stimuli.

So, it's just the three of them left, they did have twins earlier, but both of them died, Crew’s older sisters, and Verity. So, Lowen comes into the space and essentially gets the master bedroom and Verity’s study to stay in while she goes through all the manuscripts and all that kind of stuff. And from here hijinks ensue.

10:46

Holly: Yes, yes.

10:47

Harley: All the hijinks.

10:48

Holly: So, another thing to note here is also that Lowen has a history of sleepwalking. So, she originally hadn't planned to stay in Verity’s home, she wanted to come in, collect things, and then leave essentially. She doesn't feel comfortable staying there. She's worried about other people's safety because of what she's capable of while she's sleepwalking, more so than anything else.

11:12

Harley: Which leads to little things like, she asked Jeremy to put a lock on the outside of the door. There's already one on the inside, which she's like, he's thinking like, oh, you think then I might be some kind of creep. That's cool. Like, I want you to be safe and feel safe in my house.

11:31

Holly: But then there's an incident so she goes to sleep, and she sleepwalks and she lets herself out of her room. She unlocks the lock that’s on the inside and wakes up in Verity’s bed.

11:41

Harley: Not her subconscious at all, like, trying to take Verity’s place. Anyway, once he realizes that she's the problem, she's actually not worried about him. He does agree to put a lock on the outside of the door which leads to later on them being like, it's weird how this lock keeps locking itself, while she's getting increasingly paranoid that it is in fact not locking itself and that Verity is full of shit. I don’t like Lowen.

12:06

Holly: I don't Lowen either. I actually don't think I like any of the characters. And I especially don't like Jeremy, I don't know what it is about Jeremy. But it was like I was waiting for him to be the villain. But he's not. But is he? But he’s not. I don't know.

12:23

Harley: That's the thing with the letter is he had already read the manuscript. Because in her letter, she says he drove, he's the one that drove her into a tree.

12:34

Holly: But did he? So, this is it. I'm team manuscript, even though I absolutely want to hate on Jeremy.

12:42

Harley: But the thing with the letter is that she had to, at some point, become conscious enough to write it. So do you think she's written it deliberately for…

12:52

Holly: Because there's too much detail in the letter, if she was writing a letter to Jeremy, there wouldn't be that much detail. She's written the letter for Lowen to find, not for Jeremy to find, which is why there's detail in there.

13:07

Harley: But that also could be explained by Colleen Hoover needing to put it in for the plot.

13:11

Holly: But I'm gonna go with it. I think that's it, follow it. Also, when Jeremy supposedly read the manuscript for the first time, let's say the first time was when Lowen gave it to him, he would have remembered those events differently. If it was fake. Yeah, he would have remembered those events differently. For example, when they had the fight, and he threw his plate of food against the wall, because Verity was only ever talking about Crew and not talking about the daughter Harper.

13:42

Harley: I suppose the thing that is the only difference necessarily is because in the manuscripts, she talks about how it was like, ‘I had to come up with an excuse. And I came up with the perfect excuse.’ But if he remembers her just being like, well, she's doing all of this stuff. And Harper isn't. And I wasn't gonna bring it out with you. But they have brought up that she maybe has autism. And that's why she's not doing it. But like, I genuinely wasn't playing favorites and she's not succeeding in the way that her twin is.

14:07

Holly: So, but if he had read the manuscript prior, and he knew what she was like when Lowen was like, ‘I saw your wife at the top of the stairs.’

14:21

Harley: But this is the thing, is if he's failed to kill his wife once, is he hoping that he can use Lowen as an alibi, so he's actually setting up a lot of this stuff in order to have Lowen be like ‘No, no, I'm the one that pushed him to do it.’

14:35

Holly: I absolutely want to believe that, but I just feel like it's not right. I really want to hate Jeremy. Also earlier, Verity’s father made a comment about how God punishes evil or something like that.

14:48

Harley: So Verity obviously comes from a very religious family.

14:52

Holly: But also in the way that Verity’s father made this comment, it seemed like he was implying there Verity was evil to be punished.

15:04

Harley: I mean, arguably because they were obviously portrayed as the ultra-right wing religious kind of ones where it's like, is that an accurate statement of Verity? Or is that a, you didn't go with the husband that we chose for you who was going to beat the shit out of you and knock you up with like, 12 separate kids? Like, you've betrayed the church, you're a sinner and sinners get punished.

15:30

Holly: Could be.

15:32

Harley: So, one of the things that's really hard about who done it, and who's the bad person, and all that kind of stuff is I think they're all not great people.

15:39

Holly: Colleen has done a very good job of creating unlikeable characters.

15:45

Harley: And interestingly, in ways where I think the thing that makes Jeremy so unlikable is the fact that all of the women around him are like he's perfect, and I'm addicted to his dick. He's the perfect dad. He loves his children, and he's so good at everything. And he's such a caring husband. Did I mention I'm really addicted to his dick? Ugh!

16:07

Holly: Get over yourself mate.

16:10

Harley: He never says it, women around him. He's just like, he's so great. I'd like to hear this story from the nurse’s perspective.

16:21

Holly: Did they have a fling too? Probably

16:22

Harley: I'd love if the nurse was like, just a casual lesbian being like, What a wanker.

16:30

Holly: Yeah…

16:33

Harley: Like he's fine. But… He is her employer. I don't know. I hadn’t thought about it past that point. Why do you ask? Pays the bills on time?

16:38

Holly: Now speaking of the nurse, Lowen made a comment about Verity to the nurse in front of Verity, when Verity is supposedly in this sort of catatonic state, and the nurse, takes Lowen out of the room and says to her, ‘We don't talk about our patients in front of them, because we don't know what they can hear. So, we don't talk about them like they're not there.’ Now, that standalone, great sentiment. But do we think that perhaps the nurse had an idea?

17:13

Harley: I don't think so. Because I think it's pretty standard for and I mean, she already obviously didn't like Lowen, because Lowen came in already thirsty for Jeremy. And went straight into the master bedroom. It was clearly like, and to be clear, Jeremy's upstairs.

17:30

Holly: Jeremy moved from that room to be closer to Crew.

17:35

Harley: So basically, the family is upstairs. So, Verity has her own room upstairs with all of the equipment and stuff required to make sure that she makes it through the night and all that kind of thing. Crew has his bedroom upstairs. And Jeremy has moved up there so that Crew is not alone upstairs with the mom. But Lowen comes in, clearly like fluttering her eyelashes at every opportunity at Jeremy and, in a way, positioning herself a bit as mistress of the house. I think the nurse is very much like there's something sinister about her. But I think when you take yourself out of Lowen’s perspective, I can see her just being like, ‘You're kind of an asshole.’ And one of the things with Verity, is she's not capable of controlling her body or communicating I think, so they don't actually know how brain damaged she is, where potentially, she could be trapped in there, fully aware, but not able to communicate or take care of herself or things like that. So, I think it's a pretty standard notation. It's just, for me, a good nurse, where she's like, it's really like can you imagine being stuck in your body not able to communicate? And everyone talked around about you, but around you and not to you. So I think, it's that thing of being like, Okay, Verity, we do this, don't we Verity? Like the same way I talk to Peanut. But it is that thing of, I don't think she knows.

18:59

Holly: For those who don’t know, Peanut is the spoiled dog currently sitting on Harley’s lap.

19:03

Harley: He’s a fur child who actually communicates very effectively, despite not using words. But I do think that that's just her being a good nurse. And I think, combined with her kind of dislike of Lowen, and Lowen’s feeling of being judged by her. Which to be fair, she's very much still in her own head about it. Like she's still very self-absorbed about it instead of being like, oh, fuck, she's like, she's pulled me up and like, no, I'm like, I'm so sorry. And I would never and how could this happen? Oh, Jesus Christ, nut job. Also, part of the reason why she needs the money, where she finishes the books for Verity, is because she's an author who is actually relatively successful, but she's too scared to meet any of her fans because someone one time said they didn't like a sentence in a book or some shit. Like, oh my god. How do you function in this world when that tiny bit of criticism will send you right off the deep end? And I'm not saying that it's not hard to see your creative work critiqued, but like, you know what you're in for. And that it was not a big amount of critique that sent her off, she would have gotten more from an editor. But if one fan doesn't just totally love everything she's doing. She can't handle it.

20:24

Holly: Yeah. So, Verity is famous, because she writes a series and the point difference about this particular series is that Verity has written it from a point of view of the villain. Yeah. And then Lowen is brought in to finish the series, once it becomes apparent, Verity can no longer finish this series.

20:43

Harley: So, a big question in the book is kind of that. What does it take to write from the perspective of a villain?

20:50

Holly: Yes, and very early on Lowen brings up the idea that it's very difficult to separate the author from the characters in a lot of situations, which is why she had a bit of a fling with her agent, Cory, because he fell in love with the protagonist from her first book, he very quickly realized that Lowen was not the same as the character. So, this leads us to is Lowen special in the way that she can be separated from her character? Or is Verity the same has already written from the point of the villain and can be then separate from the point of the villain, and therefore this manuscript was just a writer's exercise to maintain that villain sort of narrative? Or can she not be separated from the character? And is she this evil person who has written this manuscript or autobiography about essentially, killing her daughter, and doing all these horrible things and falling pregnant with Crew simply to keep her husband? And, so that's the big question.

22:03

Harley: But I think it's made harder by the reliability of Lowen as a narrator, because, not to say this book is bad, but like a bad retelling of something like Rebecca, I don't know if you've read Rebecca says by Daphne du Maurier, and it is this gothic thing, whether the plot of it basically is that the narrator who's never named in the book is an assistant or like a companion to this rich lady off in Ibiza or somewhere sunny or whatever. She's going on a holiday and back in the day when the like, you know, women didn't travel and unmarried, old rich, single women would hire younger companions who could learn from them, but actually just had to be their maid. So, the narrator is doing this and she meets this guy, she falls in love. It turns out that he's a lord and he's got an estate and all that kind of stuff. She's on holiday with this older woman she meets Max, falls in love, they get married, and he takes her back to his estate, where she's haunted essentially by the ghost of Rebecca, who was his first wife, who died in an accident. And it's this really like gothic–there's a like sinister housekeeper who loved Rebecca and there’s a guy who shows up and then it's like, something's not right here, but it’s that whole thing of the there's this perfect version of Rebecca, where she was the perfect hostess and she was so beautiful and all this kind of stuff. And then there's this sinister side where it's like, what's real and what's not. That book answers the question.

23:50

Holly: This book does not, no.

23:53

Harley: The whole thing throughout it your like is Lowen paranoid and nutty. Like she because I mean, the thing about the narrator in Rebecca is that she's not neurotic the way that Lowen’s neurotic. So, there are moments where you're like, is she reading too much into it? But it's completely different. Like Rebecca is one of the best works of fiction ever written in my opinion. It's just beautifully done on so many levels. But yeah, so when I say that it's a bad version of Rebecca, Rebecca is something that I really love. So, in a way it's written in a technical sense, but also in a storytelling sense. So, I'm setting a very high bar here. When I say it's a bad version, like I said, from the start not saying it's bad, I'm just saying that something that Daphne du Maurier has done really, really brilliantly. It feels like it's what Colleen Hoover was aiming for, in her style, which is all good, all cool, but you are left being like, should I hate everyone?

24:54

Holly: Yes, you do. We do. We hate everyone.

24:58

Harley: Who's good? Who's bad? I can't tell. I just don’t like them.

25:01

Holly: Crew, the six-year-old. He's the only one. So, Colleen did start to lose me towards the end there. Once we did find the letter. I thought that I don't like how this is wrapping up. I don't like how it's very neat and tied together. And it could just be like trying to stab at the heart for no reason. But then she did win me back with the last line. And so essentially this letter goes on to say that the manuscript was fake. The autobiography was a fake autobiography. It was a writing exercise to stay in character.

25:39

Harley: And this is after–so Lowen’s given the manuscript to Jeremy, they've gotten it on by this stage. He's gone, You're crazy. She's gonna read the manuscript, make your own decision, and then they kill Verity, make it look accidental. She's knocked up now with his child, and they've come back to clean out the house because they're basically gone, this is a house full of bad memories. They're going to clean it out and find something that’s theirs. So, while she's doing that, she finds a very secret hiding spot.

26:13

Holly: Well, Crew gives it away. The son mentioned that he'd forgotten something that was left in the floor of the room.

26:20

Harley: Like ‘the drawings I used to give to mum’, because he always knew that his mom wasn’t in as much of a catatonic state as she pretended to be.

26:29

Holly: And there were hints that there was perhaps a hiding spot because there was an incident where a Crew fell off the bed and was holding a knife or something and so there was a knife on the ground and Crew would hurt himself. This is kind of the first time that Lowen really stepped up and plays mummy to Crew, notices this knife on the floor but has to deal with the bleeding child then deals with that and goes back to get the knife, but the knife is gone. So, we're starting to go okay, well, maybe there's something, she actually did look for the knife, but couldn't find it.

26:58

Harley: And then it becomes a thing of like, Jeremy, of course, he's like, did you actually see a knife? Are you seeing things and do you like being paranoid? So that her reliability is questioned. But of course, being the kind of book it is, you are like, so, something is afoot?

27:22

Holly: Yeah, it was pretty obvious that Verity wasn't actually as you know, passed out as she seemed to be.

27:24

Harley: I mean, the woman deserves an Oscar.

27:26

Holly: Yeah, impressive for how she stuck to that even when it was just the two of them, just Lowen and Verity.

27:31

Harley: Also, Lowen, a few times tries to test Verity to prove that she's not as catatonic as she seems. And made loud noises behind her and she doesn't respond. So, like, the woman can act.

27:45

Holly: Or is this possibly, Jeremy has read the manuscript and is drugging her? It could be many options, because there’s so many options.

27:59

Harley: But yeah, so you kind of have a neat, nice little wrap-up where it's like, they lived happily ever after, Verity’s the bad one. And then she finds this letter. Which is where you were lost for a minute?

28:08

Holly: Yeah, so I was lost with this letter. I didn't like how it was wrapping up neatly and everything. So, the letter was basically explaining how the manuscript was a writing exercise. And she didn't actually hate her children, she didn't actually kill them.

28:27

Harley: So, I can't remember the name of it. But the writing exercises are essentially something that had been suggested by Verity’s agent because she was having trouble with a book, so the exercise is basically that you take real events that have happened, but you rewrite them as though you're a villain.

28:41

Holly: Great exercise, by the way, everyone, every writer should have a crack at it.

28:46

Harley: Have you ever?

28:48

Holly: Oh, yeah, I did a whole course on villainy at uni.

28:52

Harley: I've never actually had anybody suggest that as a writing exercise. I like it. But so yeah, the idea then is that the manuscript is invalidated because it was a writing exercise where she's taken the real events of their children dying and rewritten it with her as the villain.

29:08

Holly: Then Colleen Hoover manages to pull me straight back in with the last line of the novel. So the last little section of the book is, no matter which way I look at it, it's clear that Verity was a master at manipulating the truth, the only question that remains is which truth was she manipulating. The book also ends with the end, which is also how both the manuscript and the letter and so, did Lowen find a non-villain autobiography and then rewrite it to get into the headspace of Verity. To write Verity’s books and so was this manuscript actually Lowen’s villain rewriting excess exercise, which wouldn't necessarily explain why Verity was faking being catatonic, but it just adds an extra layer there.

30:14

Harley: Yeah, I have to say why I actually think the biggest argument for Verity is the bad guy is that she stayed so long. Like, I know she's got some bullshit about waiting for the payout from Lowen’s money or whatever, like the books that Lowen’s writing but I'm sorry, she would still be getting royalties and things from the preexisting books. I can’t believe for a second that she couldn't have figured out a way to pull some of that out of the bank account. Oh, for sure. And ran off with Crew if she really thought that Jeremy was gonna kill her and send her to jail and she was totally innocent. And it was just a writing exercise. Like why the fuck is she staying in this house and just watching it all happen? But then on the other side of it, I feel like the Verity from the manuscript is like she would have given Lowen a run for her fucking money. Because the whole time her motivation was that she was obsessed with Jeremy, she was obsessed to the point where him loving his own children was something that she was jealous of. So, her just staying catatonic and moving some knives around while Lowen is there mooning over and winning over her husband? I don't believe for a second that she wouldn't have been like, Enjoy eating glass bitch.

31:25

Holly: Yeah, we also know that Lowen is developing this obsession for Jeremy as well. So that obsessive behavior is displayed by both women kind of dismissed because they do go into town and all the women fawn over him and everything. But there is quite a powerful scene where so when Verity and Jeremy are having sex, it's so intense that she liked bites down on the headboard and are these teeth marks in the headboard. There's another scene where Lowen is imagining herself straddled over his face and bites down to replace Verity’s marks with her own teeth marks.

32:04

Harley: But actually, I wonder how much Lowen  is obsessed with the idea of becoming Verity more than she is Jeremy. So, he's just the prize that represents that she has ascended to the role of Verity.

32:15

Holly: Yeah. Which starts with her being asked to get into a headspace to write these books.

32:21

Harley: By the end, she is doing interviews and things that she'd always avoided doing.

32:26

Holly: She fully steps into and embraces Verity.

32:30

Harley: Which then makes you wonder if Verity is the bad guy or is Lowen the bad guy?

32:34

Holly: Everyone's a bad guy. Especially Jeremy, hate that asshole.

32:37

Harley: I think he's just a bit bland. I can conceive him being played by someone like Ben Affleck and being like, hmm.

32:43

Holly: I think I was just waiting for him to be the villain. And he just wasn't, I think because it's called life experience. Whenever a guy seems too good to be true, it's because yeah, he 100% is.

32:57

Harley: But I think that's then where that ending is that thing of the like, because in her letter, essentially, she says that Jeremy found the manuscript. So essentially, she's writing to Jeremy, but she's like, ‘I can't believe that you believed that and that you didn't realize that it was just a writing exercise. You should know me better than that. You're my husband, but you just immediately believed it.’ And so her version of the car accident that put her into the hospital. And that is the reason why she can't move or ride or speak or anything anymore, is that he orchestrated it essentially. So, he drugged already strapped her into her car. And while she couldn't control it, ramped up the speed. I'm not entirely sure about the technical aspects. So, he taped you to the chair, but then he untied you. But then somehow the pedal was still down, but he wasn't in the car. The airbags were turned off.

33:53

Holly: But this was your idea because that's how you were going to kill Harper. You were going to turn her airbag off when she was sitting in the passenger seat.

34:01

Harley: Like I should have done that before she killed her twin. So, in the manuscript, so essentially, the way that the two twins died is that Chastain had a peanut allergy. And she was at a party and the kids raided some snacks and she went into anaphylactic shock. Died in her sleep. And then Harper, who in Verity’s manuscript, is just like the evil twin, drowns, but in Verity’s manuscript, she's drowned her. So, the actual series of events that we know for a fact has happened is that Chastain has had a peanut allergy and died, and Harper has drowned in a boating accident. That's the only thing that we know for a fact. So, we know the boat tips over and we know there was fishing underneath and unfortunately, Harper got tangled in the fishing net. But we don't know anything beyond that.  So, in the manuscripts of the like, the villain edits or the writing exercise, whatever. Verity’s whole thing is that she knew from the start that so she, as soon as she fell pregnant and Jeremy was like, ‘Oh my god, I'm so excited to have children,’ she was immediately jealous of her children. But then when they were born, she fell in love with Chastain. And she actually had a maternal bond with her. But then she was like, completely convinced that Harper was the evil twin. So, from the get-go, she was convinced that one day, Harper would kill Chastain and that she loves Chastain because she knew that she wouldn't have as much time on this earth. So, when Chastain has their reaction to peanuts because they've snacked in the middle of the night, she's really like, but we were so careful about this stuff. We've always been careful with people's parents that they weren't peanuts in the house that they were like, completely out of reach of the children. And I'm convinced that Harper has deliberately snuck peanuts into Chastain ‘s food to kill her. So, Verity takes Harper and Crew out to the lake and tips the boat. And then she says that she tried to go back for Harper, but she couldn't find her, and she had to get Crew to shore.

36:00

Holly: Yeah, so she does also say, as the boat is tipping over, she says to Crew, hold your breath, sweetheart, hold your breath, honey, or something like that. So, the question is, why did the boat tip?

36:14

Harley: And this is the thing is that that's one of the points that after reading the manuscript, supposedly, Jeremy has gone to her. Why did you say that to him ahead of time? And she said, because I thought that Harper would be able to, I didn't know the net was there, I thought that Harper would be able to swim enough that like I was more worried for him than her even though I was worried for both of them. Like she didn't know that it was going to happen. But that's the point where he's like something is afoot.

36:41

Holly: Had he supposedly read the manuscript or had Crew told him? I think Crew had told him before he'd read the manuscript. So, he already kind of had a bit of an inkling that something.

36:52

Harley: Yes, because this was in the manuscript. He'd gone and she realized that she’d lost him. And so, she drove herself into a tree.

36:59

Holly: Yes. So then in the letter, we hear a slightly different version of events. So, in a letter, and supposedly Harper is leaning over the side of the boat, and Harper accidentally tips the boat over And as the boat was tipping, supposedly, there, she says to Crew, ‘Hold your breath, honey.’ There's a period of time where she's searching for Harper, can't find her, needs to get Crew to shore, then goes back in trying to find Harper. She's tangled. I believe 30 seconds was mentioned. It was like 30 seconds before she realized that Harper wasn't following her to shore or something like that. When there's a traumatic incident like this, and everyone's been kicked out of the boat and no one's wearing life vests. It's much deeper than you thought it was going to be. And you've got to get kids out of there. 30 seconds is a long time, like as a mother 30 seconds before you realize your child is not behind you. Is a long fucking time.

38:02

Harley: So, say as somebody who I don't know how much time you spent boating. So where I used to live in South Australia, it's like, right on a river, a horseshoe bend in the river. So, I've done a lot of kayaking and things and one of the things that we were taught was essentially how to tip a kayak and get out safely. But the boat tips and stays afloat generally. If I had two children, and a boat tipped, would you not get the one who can't swim to the boat and go, ‘Hold on, do not let go, I’m finding your sister.’ Because he doesn't have to swim. He just has to hold on. And he's old enough to do that, like a five-year-old definitely can do that.

38:45

Holly: He's definitely old enough to do that. I think he was about five or six. Because it wasn't that long before the first meeting that it happened. But also, you've lived on this property for a while with this body of water, that he can't swim at all. I don't believe that.

39:04

Harley: I mean, like I said, even in the version of events where he can't, he's old enough to hold on, he should have been able to the end like, superhuman mum strength in the midst of an accident. Let's flip that boat back over like that. Well, you could like sit on top of it and be like, just don't let go of the boat. I'm coming back for you, don't let go of the boat and immediately go down and find your daughter.

39:22

Holly: So, I would have managed that situation. But also like the boat tipping, and the fishing net being at the bottom, but we already know that the water is very deep. So how has she got that deep that quick? Yeah, if she was the one that actually took the boat, she kind of knew it was coming, right? Yeah, obviously they knew the tip was coming with enough notice for Verity to say to Crew, ‘Hold your breath.’

39:50

Harley: Like I mean, obviously accidents happen, and people react the wrong way in them and all that kind of stuff. But like the fact that they couldn't find her at all as well where it's like… It almost would be a more realistic telling event if she had gone down for her daughter as well. And couldn't free her from the net. And so, there's this panic thing of like, how do I save you? And, I can't go back and find a knife because we're miles out. Like by the time I get back to shore, run up to the house and run back down. You're not going to be okay. Like, I can't leave you, but I can't save you. I don’t know, that feels more realistic to me. Because how far down, how long was Harper at the time? How far down could she possibly have gotten that they couldn't find her at all? There’s not a version of that that makes sense to me.

40:39

Holly: Which I think the manuscript version makes the most sense, allowing for some, like, possibly not quite lived experience creative liberties there. Yeah. I think the manuscript makes the most sense.

40:52

Harley: Yeah. And I think too, it makes the most sense in terms of her not actually being that far down, but Verity just looking in the wrong spot because she swam away and swam back.

41:03

Holly: I mean, already in the manuscript she said that she just wanted to go under, and backup just bob up and down a few times until she was breathless, so it seemed like she'd been looking in a panic, without actually looking.

41:11

Harley: But it is very much in line with the kind of person she presents herself to be in the manuscript that she would go down being like I thought she was here and be like, it was just panic that made me look in the completely the wrong spot.

41:23

Holly: Because the first thing she's gone is back to the boat to check that Harper's not in that air pocket.

41:30

Harley: Yeah, be like, don’t you fucking hide out in here and survive you little bitch.

41:34

Holly: Which we're assuming this is a very still like, the boat flipped, it's probably not drifted too far away from where it had flipped.

41:44

Harley: They seem to make out in all versions of it that it has though. So, it's always hard with stuff in fiction, where it's like, how much is the author not understanding what they're writing about? And how much is deliberate? Do you know what I mean? Like, Colleen Hoover may have liked the idea of a lake, but has never gone boating. Whereas I'm reading it as somebody who's like, I like I can steer a kayak just fine.

42:08

Holly: But if we're going to actually tip, accidental tip over by Harper, it's probably not going to move that far. Very violent on-purpose tip, by Verity. The boat may have moved further away then, with my very limited knowledge of how boats and water work.

42:29

Harley: Any water movement will get the boat to move, and they drifted further out than they intended to, which does imply that there is movement in the lake, or that there's wind or something moving them around. Because it's not just the water. It's like wind and air and all that stuff as well. So, like it can move, but it just like this just…

42:47

Holly: It feels like it's like two kilometers down the stream, the way she writes it.

42:51

Harley: It's like, long river and he's like, nice to meet you boat, bye boat. Yeah, I think that's the thing that's disingenuous for me, not that it would move at all because of course it would. But it's moved so far that they've just got no marker for when this poor child is drowning. I feel like it sounds like I didn't enjoy reading it, but I did. I stayed up till 4 am to finish it.

43:19

Holly: Which I think because you stayed up till 4 am I was like, this is gonna be binge-worthy. And I read it, more or less, in like two sittings. Yeah, it was binge-worthy. It's not the typical book that I would have enjoyed. I probably wouldn't have read it before.

43:36

Harley: I’d just gotten far enough in that I was committed to just seeing it through you know? Also, I really thought that we were going to have more of a horror movie kind of ending with the like, Lowen and Verity alone in the house, fight for survival?

43:50

Holly: Yes, I was so sure I even messaged you about it. Because they make such a big point about the basement door being on backwards. And how you can't open it from the inside if you put your arms full.

44:02

Harley: And it's literally just an excuse to get it down in the basement. So, she knows things have been rearranged.

44:06

Holly:

And it's dark down there.

44:09

Harley:

And it's like, this really felt like a setup for a bigger thing than just I went into the basement later and was like, Wait a second. Somebody's been going through boxes.

44:15

Holly: Did Colleen Hoover intend there to be a confrontation like that, and then change your mind and be like, oh, just leave those breadcrumbs in there. Or she deliberately put those breadcrumbs in there to misdirect. I was so sure that was like foreshadowing. I even messaged you about it.

44:34

Harley: I didn't want to let you down where I was like, it's literally nothing. Because I mean, I feel like you may have not made it to the end of the book if I'd said that to you, just out of sheer like excuse me, no, fuck you. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff like that where I really felt like I was gonna get more of a payoff.

44:53

Holly: I think that's partly why I don't like the characters because they felt like they had more potential. Yeah, and they just didn't quite live up to it. It’s like, are you a villain? Are you not a villain? It’s so morally gray at this point because of the way the book is written and if they're deliberately like that.

45:12

Harley: I mean it's very hard to know how much Lowen’s paranoia is because she has a dream at one point where she's like, oh my god Crew, and that's actually what pushes her to go to Jeremy about Verity and like push it to those final confrontations because she has a nightmare that Crew's grown up evil because of his mother's influence. What the fuck Lowen? Your nightmare doesn't justify destroying a family. Even if you're right about Verity, like the fact that that's the thing that finally makes you be like, no, I won't stand for this. Jeremy, you have to know the truth about her. And I feel like that is Lowen trying to make herself the like, I'm just such a caring, loving person. And I care so much about everyone. Even this child. It's not my own. But it's Jeremy's last hope or whatever, from this relationship. But like, I'm so caring that that's the thing that made me do it wasn't for myself. It was for Crew.

46:14

Holly: Like bitch it was for you. Crew, his due date, right? So very, Verity’s worried that Jeremy's gonna leave to give a shit. So, she says, I'm pregnant. And then they fuck like rabbits for two weeks until she does fall pregnant. So, there's not just a two-week discrepancy there because if she already supposedly knew that she was pregnant, it would be at least a six-week discrepancy, which is a long time even to be like, oh, he's just overcooked, like, that is too long. It's way too long. So, I feel like that's another clue that when Jeremy did read the manuscript, once Lowen had given it to him, things clicked into place before he confronted her. Because that's a big one.

47:09

Harley: Which then makes you be like, is Jeremy stupid? Is he stupid or is he evil?

47:17

Holly: Both. But which one primarily? I don't know. I think he's just stupid. I think he's just like a himbo.

47:27

Harley: It does feel like a game. So, I always say when I'm bartending and I'm serving drinks. And girls, I never know what to do, like, play drunk or stupid. And they're like, what do you mean? I'm like, you literally going up to people being like, are you stupid? Are you drunk? Because if you're just stupid, you can have a beer. But if you’re drunk, no beer for you, it's like that with you where it's like, evil or stupid. People are stupid. Can't tell. But can I have a second opinion? If you were to call your boss I would be like, can I serve him? Is he just dumb? Or is he evil?

47:56

Holly: Yeah, so second opinion, is he dumb or evil?

48:01

Harley: I think mostly dumb. He does, in the end, no matter what version of events you believe, murder his wife.

48:05

Holly: He does. Yes. It's just whether it's the third attempt or the first attempt.

48:09

Harley: Yeah. I also think it's quite telling that he doesn't give her an opportunity to speak. Like, if you heard like, let's just play the straight version of events for him. You've lost two children, your wife's catatonic, or whatever. You try to make the most of all of it, like, finally getting a taste of not being alone all the time after being the good, dutiful husband. And then this woman who's fucking here gives you a manuscript from your wife, where she confesses that she's like, the evilest thing ever. And you go in there, and you force her to respond to you to prove that she's not actually as catatonic as she seems. And then you just immediately kill her. And you don't make her explain herself. You don't do any of the like, would you not be like, ‘Thank you for giving me all of this information moment but get the fuck out. Verity and I are having a conversation.’ Even if he kills her in the end, would you not have that minute of being like, ‘No, I want you to explain yourself.’ And then if she can't be like, ‘Cool, well guess who's dying?’

49:16

Holly: I mean, I think I'm gonna sound like a horrible person here. I feel like his reaction was accurate. I think it was because he's reading the manuscript for the first time and things are clicking into place because they make sense things like Crew’s birthdate being off, confirmation that the suspicions that they already hinted the boat that had caused her to die were correct, then, yeah, I think it deals with suspicions that he'd already had. And this is confirmation from her own hand that yes, it is correct. And then go in there and the final nail in the coffin is oh yeah surprise I'm actually not catatonic. Also murder is wrong, and we are not condoning in any way, shape, or form.

50:01

Harley: I do condone playing drunk or stupid. I do not condone murder.

50:06

Holly: Drunk or stupid can be fun. I am both most of the time.

50:11

Harley: So, we're talking about you think that it's a normal reaction for–

50:16

Holly: Maybe not normal.

50:17

Harley: Whatever justified or not, I guess normal for the circumstances?

50:23

Holly: Normal for the circumstances. But this is assuming that he hadn't previously read the manuscript. And he was reading it for the first time, things were clicking into place.

50:33

Harley: To be fair, I brought that up as well, like in that version of events, because I feel like in that version of events, he hasn't had time to have that what the fuck moment, they're not saying he'd hear her out properly, or they'd have a really deep conversation and everything would be fine, or any of that kind of stuff. But I would have a what the fuck moment where it's like, you got to start talking real fast, because you've got about 60 seconds before I start getting stabby, or strangle-y in this case, but you know.

51:01

Holly: I think it was something that he had already kind of assumed, and he'd been dwelling over for a long time. And this was just like a confirmation that he was correct.

51:12

Harley: Yeah, I guess there's just a level of calculation in both of them where he's like, I mean, he goes to strangle her and she's like, no, make it look like an accident.

51:21

Holly: Yes. So, Lowen is a very cold and calculated character. Regardless, she steps into playing the role of mummy quite well. She steps into replacing Verity very well. But ultimately, she was chosen to write the rest of Verity’s novels, which are from the point of the villain. So, there must be some reason for that. So, there's a whole theme throughout the book of the really similar style to Verity. Or you can touch on what she can touch on or like, which kind of brings us back to the probably not correct, but possibility that Lowen was the one that wrote or rewrote Verity’s autobiography.

52:07

Harley: Yeah, I think too, it's quite telling that like, throughout the beginning of the book, so the original thing is that Verity always admired Lowen’s work and wanted to bring her in. But actually, it was Jeremy, who'd read her stuff and liked it. And he's also said he's never read anything except the first book of Verity’s. So, there's just a whole lot of questions that are unanswered that draw you in, but also kind of what makes it, I mean, it is junk food, but it has that junk food quality, where it's like, you feel like you've eaten a whole meal. And all of this stuff was good, but I'm not satisfied. So I've eaten my cheeseburger, but I'm still hungry somehow.

52:50

Holly: So then, are there any parallels between Jeremy and Corey, the agent, because both of them have read Lowen’s work, and both were attracted to her through this work? Corey very quickly realized that she was not the character and therefore fell out of love.

53:09

Harley: That then becomes the question of is Lowen as we see her in the book, because she is the one who identifies that's why Corey loved her and why he stopped loving her. But also, do we believe the version of herself that she is presenting throughout the book?

53:27

Holly: And I don't know that I do. There's obviously something else there. Because just the way that she's so coldly makes it look like an accident. That was just very…

53:40

Harley: I mean, it's told from her perspective in that way, where kind of as you're reading it, initially, it's that thing of like, you're very these awful, like, save yourselves. But then when you kind of stop and think about it, or you reread it, you're like, hang on a second here.

53:55

Holly: Everyone's fucked up.

53:57

Harley: But this is what I mean.

53:58

Holly: It just makes sense.

53:59

Harley: I feel like it's like junk food.

54:01

Holly: It's so junk food where it is,

54:02

Harley: It's like, I'm really craving that. And I mean, I don't eat at McDonald's because I'm vegetarian. And I don't think they’ve ever had a good vegetarian option, ever. But it's that thing of that, like, I'm gonna have a cheeseburger and some chips. And I'm really craving that kind of food, and then you eat it, and you're hungry again, within five minutes. And it's that kind of quality where, while you're reading it, it's satisfying. And then as soon as you're done, you're like, how you might feel? Well, I'm still hungry. And it feels like the same thing where I really enjoyed reading it, but then I got to the end of it. And I mean, to be fair, when I got to the end of it, I was like, holy shit. But then, kind of immediately after that year, it was like, I feel unsatisfied. Like, this doesn't feel like it's given me any fun.

54:43

Holly: And we definitely left with a nasty hangover. Not a nice hangover.

54:45

Harley: Yeah. And there's no nutritional value. Which is fine. Sometimes that's what you're after. I think that is why it lends itself to that definition of an airport read that we had at the start. But yeah, it does feel a bit junk food-y. And the more we talk about it, the more I realized that I'm still hungry. Yeah, to wrap it up, because we really could ramble about this book and what all of the options could be and how unsatisfied we are for hours in the interest of our time and yours. We're going to finish it by asking you some questions. So, first things first, which Verity do you think is real?

55:23

Holly: Yeah. So is it manuscript Verity, or letter Verity?

55:28

Harley: And based on which Verity you think is real, what do you think of Jeremy and Lowen? Because I think which version you decide on really does change the perspective of them. Also, if you really liked Lowen, Jeremy, or Verity, let us know and let us know why. Because we may very well just be disagreeable people, so let us know if we're disagreeable. Let us know if you agree. But, like I said, let us know if you disagree too, because I think we're gonna say all discussion–most discussion is good discussion, as long as everybody's respectful.

56:06

Holly: So, I guess we opened the podcast asking us, manuscript versus letter. So, we’re going to finish it by asking you, manuscript versus letter, or crazy random third theory that Lowen has rewritten everything. But then why is Verity pretending to be in a coma? So let us know. Are you going to crazy fourth theory that actually it's all Chastain? And she didn't ever have a peanut allergy or something? We want to know.

56:34

Harley: We'll also accept aliens. Always could be aliens or the Illuminati.

56:41

Holly: could be. It could be weird sirens that live in that lake. You know? And that's where Harper is. She's actually becoming a siren, joined the sirens, to bring on the New World Order. Yeah, yeah.

56:52

Harley: So basically, we’re saying crazy or otherwise, we'll accept all theories.

Harley: Hi, guys, it is us from the future. Hello from the future. So, we originally recorded this episode of Verity when it was pretty freshly released.

57:12

Holly: Yeah. So, since we've recorded, Colleen Hoover has released a special collector's edition, which did include an extra chapter at the end.

57:21

Harley: So, we're here to talk about the extra chapter.

57:25

Holly: So, this is an additional spoiler alert, if you haven't read the collector's edition extra chapter, you might want to switch off now. Or you could just listen, like it's your choice.

57:37

Harley: What did you think of the extra chapter?

57:39

Holly: I feel very validated. But I also don't feel like it was necessary.

57:44

Harley: I resent a little bit that we, I mean, so we only got one copy of the bonus chapter version. But essentially, we've paid for three separate copies.

57:54

Holly: Four. Well, you've bought the Kindle edition. I have a physical copy of the original, plus the physical copy of the collector's edition. And I have an audiobook version. So, we have four.

58:10

Harley: Yeah, so I don't think that the extra chapter was worth paying for a hardcover price again.

58:15

Holly: No, yeah, I was quite annoyed that it wasn't like you couldn't just buy a $4.99 version on Kindle or something with the extra chapter or just buy the extra chapter, you had to go out and buy a whole new hardcopy, and it wasn't available in your cheaper mass retailers that also stocked books, you had to go to a bookshop.

58:41

Harley: It also wasn't something that like, I mean, admittedly, I'm not a particular Colleen Hoover fan. So, I'm not really following these things very closely. But it's not like we knew when we originally bought Verity that there was going to be a version with an extra bit that came out. Because if we'd known that we probably would have just waited and bought that. And I think if you're already reading Verity, so if you haven't read it, you're gonna go by it, you're gonna go read it. I think it's worth getting the copy with the extra chapter. But if you've already bought it, I don't think the extra chapter is worth buying it again.

59:15

Holly: It's very disconnected. So on top of that, what happens in this chapter?

59:20

Harley: Yeah, so we start off like a year later.

59:22

Holly: About a year later. So, she's had the baby, they've moved. They're living their happy little family life with the four of them.

59:31

Harley: With a healthy dose of paranoia in case they ever get caught out.

59:34

Holly: With a very healthy dose of paranoia that only gets worse.

59:38

Harley: So Lowen is still absolutely fucking obsessed with Verity.

59:43

Holly: Yeah, and becoming Verity. And she actually mentions that.

59:46

Harley: Yes, she does seem to acknowledge that in herself. I do feel in a lot of ways like this is an attempt to maybe be able to write a sequel, given the turn of events, and cast Lowen as a sympathetic character but the thing is I already hate her. And Jeremy, being a bad guy doesn't make me hate her less.

1:00:08

Holly: Yeah. So essentially, they've gone off for a lovely family day at the beach. Jeremy's gone for a run leaving Lowen on the beach, nursing the baby, and Crew is just playing in the sand. A woman walks by who happens to recognize them and knew Verity. And essentially, Jeremy is just like, ‘Well, better tie up this loose end,’ and fucking drowns her. So, I feel very validated that yes, Jeremy is a bad guy, and I am justified in my hatred.

1:00:41

Harley: We also get a lot of stuff about Crew being more sinister.

1:00:46

Holly: Yeah, so I do have to retract my statement earlier where I was like,  Crew was the only redeemable character in the whole book because apparently not.

1:00:56

Harley: Team nurse still.

1:00:58

Holly: Yes, I'm still waiting for that sequel. That's from the nurse’s perspective.

1:01:02

Harley: It very much feels like this chapter is one to answer all of the speculation about which Verity is the real Verity. And it appears that Colleen Hoover's answer is it doesn't matter. Either way, she was a shitty parent. And to set up a say, it really feels like a sequel setup. To me, it feels insane, like a post-credit scene in a movie, where it's like, oh, yeah, by the way, the story is not done. Come back next year for the sequel.

1:01:29

Holly: And that's exactly it. But you had to buy the special edition DVD version with that theme to get it?

1:01:37

Harley: I feel like if it had been really released as, like, a bonus chapter on her website or something, but you can't grab all the money as a publishing house is want to do. Like I'm sure that was from her publishers more than her specifically.

1:01:49

Holly: Well, she's a best-selling author, how many times? I don't think she needs the money grab that this feels like it is.

1:01:57

Harley: Yeah. And yeah, it just really does feel like, so it feels like the next book is going to be set up with Lowen trying to get her baby and escape from her increasingly sinister husband and psychotic child.

1:02:10

Holly: So are we going to find out that, like, Jeremy was the one that wrote the manuscript and the letter?

1:02:18

Harley: Maybe they were both crazy. And what does that say about Lowen?

1:02:22

Holly: Is Lowen the one that's actually in a coma? And this is all a dream?

1:02:25

Harley: Has she been in a psych ward this whole time? And it turns out, Jeremy's actually her doctor, and she's not pregnant at all. She never had a baby.

1:02:32

Holly: She had a psychotic break after watching someone's head go pop. That would make a lot of sense.

1:02:36

Harley: That somehow would actually make more sense than the book does?

1:02:40

Holly: It would. And that would explain why there was so much emphasis on that scene at the start.

1:02:45

Harley: And why are there so many things that go nowhere? Like the basement door. So we did want to come in, we wanted to acknowledge that final chapter. There were elements of it that were really validating, having read the earlier books, I don't think it's entirely without value. I just don't think that its value can be measured with having to buy the book again, especially given that we had to purchase a whole other hardcopy, and we had for one reason or another, purchased three copies already. I've got no issue spending money on books; I've got no issue spending money on books that I sometimes already own. If there's a really good reason for it. I don't think this bonus chapter was a really good reason for it. You might differ if you're super obsessed with Colleen Hoover, and you love everything she's ever written and all that kind of stuff. Maybe that's a different thing for you. That's not really how I feel about authors. I'm not inclined to rebuy for something like that. But that said, for authors I really like I've definitely got physical copies. And then I've bought another copy on my Kindle so that I've got a copy if I'm just like out and about or, when so at the end of the month, we're both traveling. And if I'm traveling and I'm like, oh, I've had a shitty day and I just want to comfort read, being able to go to something that's on my bookshelf when I'm not home is convenient. Yeah, and I've got no issue with the author getting paid twice in that scenario. And with having two copies of the exact same book with no bonus chapter. But I knew what I was in for. I knew what I was paying for.

1:04:14

Holly: It is a collector's edition, so it does have a nice shiny gold cover. And it would look really great on my bookshelf if I knew where I had put it.

1:04:26

Harley: Holly's ghosts have stolen it.

1:04:28

Holly: I read it. I put it down next to my bed when I finished reading the chapter and it just evaporated.

1:04:32

Harley: Yeah, her ghosts are busy reading it. It'll turn up as it always does. I would recommend it if you haven't, I guess the additional bit that I would add is if you are buying it, I would recommend that you buy it with the extra chapter because I do feel like it feels a little bit more finished. But I wouldn't go out and buy the extra chapter. I would wait for somebody to leak it online because they'll be pissy that they paid for it. It'll get out there.

1:05:04

Holly: So, you feel it's more finished with that chapter because I actually feel the opposite. I think I liked how it finished previously.

1:05:13

Harley: I feel like it wrapped up some of the loose ends that because there's unfinished things, I didn't mind ending on the mystery of like which Verity was the one?

1:05:22

Holly: Because you can kind of wipe your hands and be like, Okay, we know Lowen is unreliable as a narrator. We also know that she is unreliable as a narrator. So yeah, we can just walk away from that whole situation as arguments were made about all of that.

1:05:34

Harley: But given that there were so many things that were just left open-ended, I mean, the basement door is just one of many, it's so telling that you sent me a message being like, ‘Oh my God, this is so going somewhere.’ I got nothing. I don't know how to respond to this. Because the answer is, it doesn't. It doesn't go anywhere.

1:05:51

Holly: I feel like if they don't bring out a sequel, which is like you say, potentially Lowen and the baby trying to escape, it's going to feel like a whole lot of fluff for no reason. It has no purpose, other than to sell more books. And then I'll be very jaded. I do feel validated that Jeremy is the bad guy or is now the bad guy. But I am interested to see where this goes.

1:06:17

Harley: I think it's a really hard sell trying to make Lowen a sympathetic narrator, because she's just so unlikable. And it kind of worked for everybody for the like, not to say that there couldn't be a sequel or any of that kind of stuff. It works that everybody was dislikable, that was one of the things that I actually would have given her credit for. She did a very good job of that. And that kind of added to the mystery of what version of events is real because you've got the stories that Lowen tells herself because it's convenient, because she's in love with Jeremy, then you've got the stories that Jeremy tells because let's be honest, like he gets his wife's fortune, with none of the carry-on of having her around. Which version of Verity is true, like, there's so many levels of unreliability and which version of anybody that you meet really is real, or it's a curated version of or you know, yadda. But yeah, I feel like there wasn't enough resolution with all of the little things in the first book. I feel like the overall story, I could have ended there and been happy. But I did feel like there were a lot of small things that weren't resolved. This feels like it's given me a sense of resolution, but it now has made me go you better fuck and not with the sequel, but then equally, you better fucking not have given me that for no reason. Like, I don't know, I just it just has made me not happy. Any which way? I'm like, is this a cash grab? Is this a sequel angle? Is this too many people on Reddit? Will I get it? What were we trying to do here?

1:07:45

Holly: I think that's what I don't really like about it. I liked that the original ending left you with questions. I don't like the questions at this additional ending.

1:08:00

Harley: I don't know that there's much more that we can say really for that one until unfortunately, we see if she does a sequel. Or I guess kind of what she chooses to do from here with this story. It's kind of hard to know what her motivations are. I can tell you right now, if she ever does a book that we read again, and then there's a bonus chapter, I'll be going to my local library and standing in the library reading it, there'd be like, I'm not even going to the effort of borrowing this. I'm certainly not buying it. I'm reading it right here.

1:08:31

Holly: Yeah. And you can do that because you will read it in about three minutes.

1:08:35

Harley: Yeah. And if it's good, I'll say buy it. If it’s not, save your money. You're welcome. Anyway, we hope you enjoyed today's episode. We hope you enjoyed this little bonus rent. Yeah, bonus chapter and if you did enjoy today's episode, please don't forget to like, subscribe, follow, click all the happy positive buttons. Leave us a review on Apple iTunes links to all the things will be in our show notes. They're also available at www.bio.link/bimbo.

 1:09:07

Holly: Want to see a little more for exclusive episodes behind the scenes and other random hot-girl shit? Subscribe to our Patreon. Again, that link will be in our show notes.

1:09:16

Harley: Join us again next week for more books, babes, and banter. Bimbos out.

Holly Hates ACOTAR: Part One transcript

© Bimbo Media

0:03 

Holly: Hi this is Bimbo Book Club with Holly.

0:16 

Harley: and Harley.

0:16 

Harley: So, ACOTAR. I'm going to save everybody a whole lot of time–by everybody, I mean you–and just go through the books in the series.

0:25 

Holly: Great, because I have no idea what is what and who is who and what court is what throne and what thorn belongs in whose face and crowns and, can I have a crown?

0:39 

Harley: Very fun listening to some of the combos she comes up with, but she won't stop until I interrupt her. So, moving right along, we have A Court of Thorns and Roses, which is where the acronym ACOTAR comes from, A Court of Mist and Fury, A Court of Wings and Ruin and there is a A Court of Frost and Starlight, but we only did the three in the trilogy and we did the three in the trilogy because someone doesn't like the first book.

1:02 

Holly: By someone she means me.

1:05 

Harley: Same, me as well. But I kept reading whereas Holly read the first one went, eh and stopped. So I made her read the other two.

1:12

Holly: Thank you for that.

1:14 

Harley: So how do you feel about the books now?

1:16 

Holly: Tolerated them? Look, I don't, hate is a very strong word. And I'm very hesitant to use it. Don't think I hate it. But I definitely don't like it. I like exactly one character.

1:14 

Harley: You only like one character?

1:14 

Holly: Only like one character. You get one guess who that is. And then one guess as to why.

1:40 

Harley: Summer or Nesta?

1:41 

Holly: Neither.

1:42

Harley: Azriel because he's got shadows.

1:46 

Holly: I forgot about Azriel. Okay, I like two characters.

1:51 

Harley: Is it Rhysand?

1:52 

Holly: It's Rhysand! Moody, maybe not quite a shadow demon, but rules the night court. Close enough.

2:00 

Harley: I'm more empathetic to your Rhysand affection than I was to Luke. To be fair, that’s got less to do with who he is as a person and more to do with my overall mistrust of crossroad demons and wish-granting beings.

2:19 

Holly: Yes, but we know I don't have a great track record or taste in men.

2:24 

Harley: But I wouldn't say my taste in men is without flaws.

2:27

Holly: Cover your ears, Peanut.

2:29

Harley: So just a quick summary of the books, which I'm guessing I will do again because Holly likes to stare at me blankly when I asked her questions about anybody other than the main characters.

2:40 

Holly: I have a list of them in front of me and I still don't know who's who. But yeah, carry on.

2:44 

Harley: She told me she was done making lists of characters and I listed about 50 more that she'd forgotten about. She was not impressed. So A Court of Thorns and Roses is basically a retelling of Beauty and the Beast, but it's retold with Fae, basically. So it's a human, a mortal woman, who ends up at this Beast's castle and has to break a curse made by an evil witch. But the beast is actually a fae High Lord. So surprise, it's a romance. However, they're not done there because there are other books. So the basic premise of those, this is your spoiler warning. Because from here on out, I'm going to actually spoil some stuff that's not dead obvious. And while I'm at it, you can have a trigger warning too, because we are definitely discussing some things like sexual assault, and other traumas that I can’t think of - any other ones?

3:36 

Holly: Yeah, sexual assault, false imprisonment, or like, being confined against your will.

3:47 

Harley: So essentially, from the second book, Feyre, who's our main character realizes she's not in love with the handsome High Lord.

3:58 

Holly: Overbearing. I’ll be quiet.

4:02 

Harley: Of the spring court. She's actually in love with the moody, handsome shadow prince that is the High Lord of the Night Court.

4:14 

Holly: And one of the two people that I like.

4:17 

Harley: There’s a war with the other nation, I guess, for lack of a better term. It's all of those kinds of basic, young adult, fairy tale and fantasy tropes. Surprise, surprise, they win the war, the Evil Shadow High Lord is actually quite a good guy. Everybody comes close to death, but all the important people make it out in the end.

4:40 

Holly: The end. That’s all you need to know.

4:43 

Harley: We will get into more detail obviously, as we're talking about specific things, but that's the general plot. So we've kind of covered overall. So I think one of the things that is a little bit frustrating and that I do find frustrating about the series is that the first book kind of lacks purpose. Like it's something that I said to you, the first book is not that relevant to the rest of the series.

5:08 

Holly: Yeah, so I read the first book a little while ago. And because everyone was raving about ACOTAR, it's all over Instagram. It's all over TikTok. Every bookshop, it's front and center. And so I was like, ‘Okay, yep, sure. I'll take the plunge.’ And I read it. And I really didn't enjoy it. And so I didn't progress the series, which is, this is one of your comfort reads, which is why we decided to do it as a trilogy. And so I was bullied into reading the next two, and by bullied, I mean, lightly asked to do it, maybe bullied to continue reading it. So we decided to do it because I had read only the first one.

5:49 

Harley: And it's very much not a representation. I think of the rest of the series.

5:55 

Holly: We can sort of look at the first book as a standalone. I just didn't like it.

6:01 

Harley: Not everybody is going to like everything. And I think actually, this is a good one to talk about in terms of, I don't necessarily think that it's the best writing in the world, I have plenty of criticisms for things in the book. I mean, the fact that I’m like, ‘The first book is largely irrelevant, like you need to read it the first time, but not if you ever want to reread them.’ I routinely reread it without reading the first book, but it is something that I enjoy as a comfort read. So, it's not that I don't acknowledge the problems in it, but I enjoy it. Whereas I think for you, it's one of those ones where you're like, ‘No, I can't get on board for this because the problems are too much for me to embrace.’

6:39 

Holly: Yeah, well, I think you nailed it on the head, hammered it on the, whatever.

6:46 

Harley: Harley was handy with a hammer.

6:49 

Holly: Harley was handy with a hammer when she said that it's possibly because I don't identify with the main character Feyre which I think is completely accurate.

7:00 

Harley: I can’t believe you’re actually giving me credit for something Ellie said.

7:03 

Holly: Oh, was it Ellie who said that? Maybe it was. So there's other novels that kind of follow the same sort of vein in terms of being like, fae or supernatural beings that have a bit of smarts that have a similar kind of storyline happening that I really enjoy. And they are my comfort reads. This one, I just couldn't get into it. I just couldn't enjoy it. There were elements where the writing just didn't quite feel very like, fleshed out or some areas that were a bit messy in terms of the actual writing style, but it wasn't terrible. It was not trash, even though it's trash, but it's not. It wasn't trash writing, not like some things.

7:47 

Harley: Like I'm offended by your lack of skills. 50 Shades, anyone?

7:54 

Holly: Yeah, it's not trash like 50 Shades. Yeah, trash writing as well as trash content.

8:00 

Harley: I do think it is worth talking about Feyre not being a particularly relatable main character, she does have a not to say that she's got no flaws. And I will probably talk about that in relation to something I think we're going to cover later. But she does have a little bit of that Mary Sue quality, like she's almost instantly good at everything. Which is not to say that she's not–throughout the course of the book, we see her learn to read because that's not something she originally has. And she does have to train and all those kinds of things. And I appreciate that. A novel is not always the place to do a training montage for lack of a better like, sometimes you just have to be like, it was six months.

8:42 

Holly: Yeah, absolutely.

8:44 

Harley: Like you have to gloss over that. It feels like this it's just a little bit too immediately convenient all of the time.

8:52 

Holly: Absolutely. It's way too convenient. It's like oh, I need this skill, particularly at the beginning of the second book when she goes back to the Summer Court.

9:02 

Harley: Beginning of the third book, because remember the second book is where she falls in love with Rhys.

9:07 

Holly: And also I think it's the Spring Court not the Summer Court because there's too many courts and too many books and too much going on.

9:12 

Harley: There’s seven courts. It's a fairy tale, seven is a perfect number for a fairy tale.

9:17 

Holly: Yeah, two is also a really good number.

9:20 

Harley: Two is a terrible number for a fairy tale. There is no magical power in two. Seven is an inherently magical number, Holly.

9:30 

Holly: So, at this rate, there will be no podcast. Thank you for joining us for our third and final episode.

9:38 

Harley: It's not the animals fighting, it’s us fighting for what the most magical appropriate number is.

9:45 

Holly: Okay, so at the start of the third book when she goes back to the Spring Court with Tamlin, I believe I have now said it correctly. And she needs certain powers and needs certain skills to protect herself in certain things like creating a silencing bubble type of thing and unlocking doors and all of this, and conveniently all of a sudden she has that power, she has that skill, no Rocky-esque montage.

10:15 

Harley: She did have a Rocky montage in the second book, it's just that it was such a brushed-over thing because it wasn't necessary to the telling of that story. So it really does seem like it comes out of nowhere. But realistically, she has been training with three, very powerful fae in the Night Court for the whole time she's been there, for the majority of the time that she's been there, plus with like Mor and Amren and stuff like that she'd been training with all of them basically, for quite a long period of time. Theoretically, there is one there somewhere.

10:51 

Holly: I think, arguably, that the whole book is a montage.

10:55 

Harley: I also think that's a spot where we see some of her more negative qualities. Because she has all the powers ever, they're actually not super effective in her achieving what she wants to achieve. Because the twins from Hybern, who's the bad guy, by the way, they have figured out what she's up to really early on. And so they're deliberately weakening her. So things aren't working as effectively as she thinks they are, however, because she understands the kind of people that Tamlin is and his High Priestess is plus the flaws in the court, she's actually very able to be emotionally manipulative, and kind of bait them into showing their true character in a way that makes them unfollowable to the court. So I mean, the reality is that, regardless of her manipulation, and she is a self-involved bitch who will take and take and take and take regardless of whether the people that she's taking from are consenting or she will allow other people to be punished for her like she's a self-serving, horrible woman. And Tamlin is a fairly ineffectual High Lord, who cares more about his status as a High Lord than he does about doing the right thing by his people. That's who they are. But she goads them into revealing that to everybody around them.

12:20

Holly: And it's actually got not a lot to do with her powers.

12:22

Harley: Like she moves a rock that Ianthe was using to mark where she needed to stand to be lit up with the first sunlight on the longest day of the year or whatever. But in terms of her big, impressive powers, shouldn't use very many of them to really–like, that's not really the real power there. So that was a lot of words to say something I probably could have said in two sentences.

12:45 

Holly: I agree with that. But I think that what frustrates me is that if she had these big moments of like, Oh, my God, I need these big powers, and then just like, digs deep and has these big powers. Great. It's like these little things that she's doing. It's like she needs a tiny, tiny piece of–I don't know how to explain it.

13:10 

Harley: I get what you mean.

13:12 

Holly: She's doing what I would consider to be intricate magic that I believe would require more montage than she was afforded.

13:23 

Harley: Yeah, so I guess it's that thing of the work, actually, weirdly tying it into the fact that she's a painter. But it's that thing of like, you can't paint a Rembrandt, if you've been studying painting for six months, and no matter how intensely you've been studying that painting.

13:36 

Holly: I get that there's probably an element of like, innate skill that she's got.

13:42 

Harley: So she didn't really have a choice in that, because she didn't realize that–she right at the very start of the very first book, is hunting to feed her family in a very Katniss Everdeen kind of way.

13:53 

Holly: It’s so Katniss Everdeen.

13:57 

Harley: And that’s why Holly is making a joke about her volunteering as tribute. But actually, she kills a wolf. That turns out to be a fae, who was in his animal form.

14:07 

Holly: Also, fuck Tamlin for just being like, ‘Off you go, guys go get killed for me.’

14:13 

Harley: Yeah. So part of his curse was that he had to find a human woman who hated the fae enough to kill one of them, and get her to fall in love with him and declare her love. That's the Beauty and the Beast element. Anyway, there's a treaty that's super, super old by human generations, even though by faith generation, they're like, oh, yeah, that's my signature. So Tamlin turns up on their doorstep, and he's like, one of you killed my lieutenant and it's a life for a life, and to protect her family, and because it was her that did it, she owns up to it being her who's done it. And so he whisks her off and she's like, ‘Oh, my God, I'm gonna die’ and surprise, surprise, he's like, ‘Well, Life for life just means I have to own your life. It doesn't mean that you have to die. So come stay in my magical,’ like, what? A townhouse? ‘Come stay on my beautiful fae property and challenge all your beliefs about how horrible the fae are.’

15:10 

Holly: And also definitely don't go and talk to anything out there.

15:15 

Harley: So Tamlin very quickly by the second book displays the negative aspects to his character. In the first book, he actually does a lot of kind things for her.

15:32 

Harley: Kind? Controlling?

15:33 

Harley: Like, without telling her, he realizes that he's taking the breadwinner for the family away and arranges for her family to come into a windfall, he also because I think Nesta tries to go over the wall. He does glamor them to forget, or to think that she's gone away to try and protect them from coming into her unstable magical kingdom.

15:56 

Holly: The glamor didn't work on Nesta. No. So she goes to try and find her sister.

16:01 

Harley: Maybe it's him being controlling, that part. But to be fair, he makes sure that her family is actually very well looked after–they're in a better condition than they were. And he doesn't tell her that initially. I can't remember how she finds it out. I think she has a go with him about, ‘You've actually condemned a lot of people to die because they're dead without me anyway’. And he's like, ‘No, they're not.’ But he doesn't volunteer that information to her. And I think that what we find by the end of the book, is that he does have a capacity for goodness.

16:33 

Holly: Yeah, okay, so he does one nice thing.

16:36 

Harley: I mean, he also brings Rhys back.

16:38 

Holly: I feel like he was peer pressured into that though.

16:41 

Harley: But there is an element of like, Enjoy your happiness even though I get to go back to my manor and be fucking miserable. He's very much that guy.

16:50 

Holly: Oh, he's so that guy.

16:52 

Harley: So he's 100% like, when things don't go his way and he's caught ruined and all that stuff. Instead of going fuck my life, I gotta like, jog on and rebuild and figure it out. He just mopes around his palace, destroying stuff, destroying shit.

17:08 

Holly: He does destroy shit, doesn't he?

17:09 

Harley: Lots of temper tantrums that boy, lots of temper tantrums. Someone needs a therapist, not a girlfriend. I do think that's, I guess, the purpose of the first book is to set her up in the fae realm. And to explain why she's at the Spring Court. When I reread it for this, I think until she goes under the mountain, there's not a lot of point to the book.

17:38 

Holly: And it could have just probably been achieved by a couple of extra chapters at the start of the second book instead of having a whole book for it.

17:48 

Harley: I think a lot of the rest of the timeline could be fudged to fit the whole rest of the story in without necessarily losing anything if you did knock off a lot of that first book. That said, I did, because it's been a while since I've reread it because like I said, I skip it a lot. I actually did quite enjoy the under-the-mountain stuff. Like her challenges.

18:13 

Holly: That's why I think you'll quite enjoy the third Neon Gods.

18:16 

Harley: So then, if we look at our main characters over this series, we've got the Court of Dreams, which for the record, so the Night Court, essentially is split into two parts. So they call it the Court of Nightmares, which is the public face of the Night Court. And it's like the big bad things that go bump in the night. You know, the terrible evil. The Court of Dreams is the court within the court of night. That is the kind of, I guess, main court. So it's like Rhysand and his actual lieutenants.

18:53 

Holly: I know who they are, because I have them written down.

18:57 

Harley: I know who they are, because I remember. But I do think there's a lot of interesting characters outside the main cast. So I would call the main cast like, Tamlin Rhys, Feyre, and I don't even necessarily know that I'd go outside of that. There are other primary characters, but they're not really main characters. I guess Hybern is the big bad.

19:17 

Holly: Yeah, Hybern and also Amarantha for the first one. But, I would agree it's probably only really those three.

19:25 

Harley: And then the bad guys on the other side. I think, though, that she's built a really interesting world. And she's got some really interesting secondary characters that I think create some space to–just to go completely off-topic to a completely different author. So there's an author I really like called Anne Bishop. She writes like, sci-fi kind of stuff. I don't know if you've read anything of hers. It's pretty obscure.

19:54 

Holly: No, I don't think so.

19:55 

Harley: So, I first read her books because I went to school with somebody who liked to be a bit pretentious and was like, ‘I'm not recommending what I'm reading to anybody because she's my favorite author. And I'm gatekeeping.’ And I was like, ‘That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.’ If you love an author and you want them to be successful, shout their name from the rooftops and get everybody to buy their stuff. So I spite read it and actually quite enjoyed it. It was a good recommendation, even if it was reverse recommended to me.

20:23 

Holly: What like, yeah. Is that an insult or you won't like this, because it's my favorite and you’re…

20:30 

Harley: She literally said to me, because she was reading it and raving about how it was her favorite thing ever. And I was like, ‘That sounds cool. I'd like to look into it.’ And she literally was like, ‘I don't want you to, because I like having something that's just mine.’ But in that way she's very specific about it, where it's like, ‘I want to have an author that nobody else has heard of. And so I have to gatekeep, so that nobody else can talk about these books. So I can just, I guess, lecture people on them.’ I don't know.

20:57 

Holly: That's like telling people that you saw Coldplay at some little tiny pub 1000 years ago, before they got busy, but then also not allowing anybody to then go and buy tickets.

21:11 

Harley: I saw Coldplay, so I crashed their websites. That was 100%, I was going to read everything that woman had ever written out of sheer spite. But it turns out, she's actually quite a decent author. And I quite like how she writes. But yes, to get back on topic. So she's got a trilogy called the Black Jewels series. And it's a series because within this world that she's created, she has a lot of like collections of short stories, standalone novels, and most of the ones that are standalone, are legitimately standalone, even though they tie back into the main stuff. So a really great example of this, and there's heaps of stuff set in this world. So if you know who I'm talking about, and I'm ignoring your favorite, sorry, I have read it. I like it, too. So part of the main storyline, the main part of the books is there are magical beings called the blood and a taint has crept in. So there's bad guys in there. And one which rises above to be the all-powerful one who can hopefully save the day. Surprise, surprise, she succeeds,

22:27 

Holly: And it takes her several books to do so.

22:29

Harley: Only three. And there are good reasons in those ones.

22:31 

Holly: Unlike the reasons in ACOTAR.

22:33 

Harley: You said it. I know that's your opinion. But one of the things in the final book, where she's trying to figure out, because her whole thing is the like, I have enough power to get rid of this taint. But like, I don't know how to do it without essentially just destroying every magical being. So it's like all or nothing. And her lover in the books goes, ‘Actually, I might have a solution.’ He's part of a long-lived race. So he's lived for 1000s of years. And he's like, a few thousand years ago, whatever. I met this warlord, and they did something on a smaller scale. But they had a similar thing where they needed to separate some magic people from others. And he left a written record somewhere, let me go find it. And I'll bring it back to you. Separate to that is a book called The Invisible Ring, which is the recounting of that story.

23:26 

Holly: Of him going off and finding the thing?

23:29 

Harley: So, it's the manuscripts that are left for the lover. So it's the story of this territory, that had to do the same thing. But it's a standalone book about, I mean, it's about a whole lot of other stuff, and all that kind of stuff. So the book itself isn't designed to be tie-in directly to those books. It's about a man who has been trapped as a slave, and discovers the ability to be of service in this. It's very complicated. It's very much sci-fi. So there's a lot of different rules and things that play into each other and yada yada, yada. So I'm really trying to simplify here. But basically, he's been a slave his whole life and he is learning in this book–he's falling in love, but also learning to be of service to a queen in a way that is for him and not just I have to submit to your every demand because I'm your slave. And how being protective of her can be saying no to her and all that, you know, so it is a standalone story entirely. And it's only when you read all of it together that you go Ah right, these connect, but if I gave you The Invisible Ring, and you read that with no context on the other ones, you could read it and know exactly what you need to know, know exactly what's going on. No issues, because it is a completely standalone novel set in the same universe. So Deamon shows up early on because obviously he meets this warlord, which is why the warlords like, ‘Thank you for your help.’

25:05 

Holly: This is like, several 100 years earlier.

25:08 

Harley: So, essentially it's covering a side quest.

25:13 

Holly: That's so cool. So I could just read all the side quests and not ever embark on the main journey. That is how I play most video games.

25:22 

Harley: I have a few games that I've not actually finished because I've gotten distracted playing side quests. Speaking of, to bring this back around what we're actually talking about. I think that Sarah J Maas could do a very similar thing, where she, for example, has a collection of short stories that cover, like, what happened to Alis, does she find her nephews? There's a whole other story there in terms of does Lucien ever figure out who his real father is. We know the short story would be about the affair between his mother and is it Dawn? So there's a whole lot of side quests that would be really interesting stories that she's set up in this world where I think that she's got the potential to take a leaf out of Anne Bishop’s book and have some really like, yeah, I guess a compelling world-building, maybe even would bring you back to that main series and be like, I'm excited to read it. So I'm really fond of this character in this kind of way.

26:18 

Holly: But then, I guess, how planned was this whole series? Because a lot of the time it feels like there are elements of plot and backstory that just kind of gets slotted in. And then it's like, oh, now this thing's happening. But here's the backstory. But here's this thing.

26:37 

Harley: I would say my frustration goes the other way, is one of the things that I find she does is she invalidates what happened in the previous book at the start of the next one. So Fayre and Tamlin finished the end of book one with the happily ever after. And then at the start of book two, she's like suffocating under the weight of his not allowing her to do anything other than be pretty and sit around and paint. And then actually another one that I'm going outside the scope of the ones that you've read, but I'm this time staying in this universe. This author, at the start Nesta’s as well. And I know you were like, ‘Yeah, well, obviously, she ends up with Cassian. And you can see that coming.’ But Nesta’s book starts off with her like not having spoken to them for ages. And she's like, shut everyone out. And she doesn't even speak to Cassian. And like, so it's back to square one, in order to tell this love story of them kind of coming together, I guess, literally and figuratively. It's a bit like she kind of erases the previous theme in order to tell the story that she wants to tell now.

27:47 

Holly: It's almost like she's written something and then like an editor or someone on Instagram has said, Oh, this would be a good next step. And she's like, Yeah, actually, that would be a good next one. And then just like, has to go back. She's done a really good job of creating a universe. I think the universe is very well thought out. I think there's a lot of characters there's a lot of people to keep track of, but I feel like the ultimate story and all of the little side quests spin-off novels just have not really been planned from the start.

28:22 

Harley: To be fair, I think that actually, if anything, suggests that maybe you should spend less time writing a main overarching plot where everything ties in together and start writing some fucking side quests. Because at the end of the day, aside from the major points of the war and when she left the Spring Court, for example, following Alis, it has no bearing on the main major books and the plot points there.

28:50 

Holly: I don't have a written down. I don't know who she is!

28:55 

Harley: From the Spring Court.

29:01 

Holly: What's the creature that she catches in the snares?

29:14 

Harley: No that’s the Suriel. To be fair, Alis is the one that, Lucien teaches her how to trap it. But then, when she gets back, Alis is like, you're an idiot. Give it a new cloak.

29:30 

Holly: Yeah, it's like you don't need to set this elaborate trap with chicken carcasses and shit. Just give it a cloak.

29:32 

Harley: Anyway, connecting the dots totally wrong.

29:35  

Holly: I'm not connecting any dots I'm coloring on the table. I'm no longer even coloring on the same book.

29:40 

Harley: You know when you see the like, Sharpie that has clearly gone through the paper and then they just started drawing on the table that’s totally Holly right now. Yeah,

29:48 

Holly: I don't know if I have the Sharpie or the table or the piece of paper that's got a hole in it.

29:51 

Harley: Or the toddler that's just, weeeeee.

29:53 

Holly: We started on the paper, went on the table, drawing our walls now. I’ve been pushed under the TV, you know, at this stage.

30:04 

Harley: So quest, I think Alis is one example of it, even actually the so I'm gonna veer into some other characters that you may not remember, I don't know if you wrote them down. So just bear with me, smile and nod until I get to the end of my point, if you don't know who the fuck I'm talking about. So there's a big wall that divides the fae and the humans. And on the human side of the world, there's a bunch of Queens who rule everything one of them is missing. Halfway through the book, I'm getting like, smiling and nodding from Holly and a thumbs up, which means, she knows who I'm talking about.

30:45

Holly: Sriracha!

30:46

Harley: Sorcha, you need to stop calling her hot sauce.

30:48 

Holly: She's a firebird.

30:52 

Harley: So essentially, this queen is opinionated, and all this kind of stuff. So she's inconvenient to the other queens. So they sell her to an evil sorcerer, who turns out to be one of three death lords that we meet throughout the series. We don't actually meet this one. But we meet his siblings, the weaver and the bone carver. This should be a YouTube video, you should see her faces. So anyway, those siblings are in the main story, which is why we're not talking about them right now. So she essentially is betrayed to this evil magician, and death Lord, and he essentially turns her into a firebird at night and a woman by day so it's the swan princess.

31:30 

Holly: One of many fairy tales, that she's not ripped off. What was the word that I want, been inspired by? Retold, retold, ripped off. I mean, inspired by. Carry on.

31:42 

Harley: I like you've looked for a second there, like you were just going to end your sentence at, ‘That's one of many fairy tales.’ Yes, Holly, it is one of many fairy tales.

31:50

Holly: Yes, one of many, seven, apparently.

31:53

Harley: We’re really committing to this I'm drawing on the walls thing. But the majority of that story occurs outside of the main plot. So they do eventually obviously show up in the main plot, or we'd have no idea that this was going on at all. But all of this stuff happens very, very far away from the main story. So that's yet another one that could be told as even a series of short stories, or as a standalone book or things like that, where it is only very loosely touching the main storyline. If you did say Alis finding her nephews. You did her finding her nephews as a short story, you could potentially have another short story and that be the affair with Lucien's mother and Dawn. Because again, it does technically have an impact on the main storyline, because it's how Lucien’s born, it's why Beron doesn't fully trust Lucien, even before, he's not part of the Autumn Court. But there's a whole lot of that kind of stuff where it's so far in the past, and it doesn't hugely affect the main story. So she can tell all of those stories. And if she goes a little bit off tap, in terms of the like, oh, right, there was a main plot, it's not a big deal, because they're not significant events to the main plot. Trouble is she stays in the main plot, and then she goes, never mind.

33:30 

Holly: That was quite annoying.

33:31 

Harley: Yeah, I think one of the most frustrating parts of the, have you planned this, is, I really like that–it's gonna sound a bit strange until I explain myself. Rhys is the one that's got a lot of the trauma, purely in terms of, usually men don't have to suffer much significant trauma that we see. And they very rarely in fiction have to suffer anything that is humiliating or sexual.

34:05 

Holly: And definitely not at the hands of a woman. Usually, if they are suffering, or being abused. It's at the hands of another man.

34:14 

Harley: I don't feel like she necessarily fully addresses that beyond like, he has nightmares.

34:21 

Holly: Yeah, I completely agree with you that I appreciate that she hasn't gone and given that trauma, and that abuse to a female and to someone who's not the main female, because Fayre has got her own shit that she's dealing with. Sarah J Maas has given it to a guy and I do really appreciate that, but I do feel like she has decapitated him because he is emotional. And you can only shove so much of that down.

34:54 

Harley: Yeah, maybe it's just a lack of understanding of complex trauma or maybe it's like, Guys, I'm writing for young adults. Especially because I mean, the way that other people see him as Amarantha’s whore, is something that carries throughout the novels. I think that it is a little bit of a disservice to what she has done. And to Rhys, that she hasn't then balanced that out with more directly addressing the fact that, regardless of the fact that he sort of willingly went to her bed, he was in a position where he didn't have a choice to do anything else, which is not consent. Even if he's like, ‘Yay, I'm so excited to do it.’ If his only other option is that he and everybody he loves dies a horrible, horrible death, that's not consent.

35:46 

Holly: Absolutely not consent. And it's 50 years of abuse, they’re under the mountain for 50 years. Yeah, okay, I get that. He's what 500? At least 300, many hundreds of years old. So 50 years drop in a bucket. For his lifetime, I get that. But regardless, it's still a long period of time.

36:09 

Harley: I mean, that's arguably like saying, Somebody was raped for five minutes. So why are they traumatized by it? Trauma’s trauma. So maybe you could argue that it's not complex trauma, but–

36:22 

Holly: I would say 100% is complex trauma, because you've got that light and dark. So he has to portray a certain image in front of other people. And then he has to be a different person in her bedroom. And then he gets to be more himself when he's visiting Fayre.

36:38 

Harley: I agree with you that it is complex trauma, just if we're going like oh, no, then it's just like a straight, because the definition of the difference is one is trauma sustained over time, and the other is trauma sustained in a moment, and then it becomes that argument of how do fae perceive time and all that stuff. I think as a mortal person reading the book, it occurs over the course of 50 years. That's over time. So shut up. It's CPTSD.

37:03 

Holly: Absolutely, it is. And I do feel like what you're saying before is so correct, how she just hasn't quite given it the depth that it deserves.

37:13 

Harley: I actually think there's a really specific scene where I feel like it could have one, been more addressed. And two, been actually quite compelling as a plot point. Do you remember in book three…?

37:31 

Holly: They have blurred into one at this point.

37:33 

Harley: So where all the High Lords meet, and she's already become Rhys’s High Lady. So she's back at the Night Court, so it has to be book three. So she loses her shit. So Azrael loses his shit. She pulls him out of there, and then she has a meltdown over. I cannot remember what, she has a meltdown over something. Baron says something disgusting, I think about Mor. And she hits him with all of her powers.

38:02 

Holly: I liked Mor. There's three characters.

38:04 

Harley: So see, I just have to list characters until Holly remembers who she likes. Because when she says ‘I only liked one character,’ what she means is I don't remember 90% of the people in this book, so I only remember the main guy and everybody else is a blur of nothing.

38:17 

Holly: Yeah, shadow demon. Annoying main character. Everyone else.

38:22 

Harley: Overbearing Spring lord, I’ve heard you rant about Tamlin enough that you don't get to pretend that you forget him.

38:30 

Holly: I just tried to actively block him out. But please tell me about the scene. Is he in this scene?

38:37 

Harley: He actually is. So they've kind of decided to reveal the court of dreams to the rest of the world because up till now it's been hidden and protected. And they want to go in being honest with the High Lords, but they've decided not to show Feyre’s powers so they aren't kind of goading her to explode, so the ones that are suspicious, so that she demonstrates the powers to everybody, and she shows that she's got everyone's powers and all that stuff. I think that that scene would have been even better if she exploded over like Beron is a great person to still do it.

39:19 

Holly: I'm just checking my notes. I wrote his name down.

39:22 

Harley: So he's being like an asshole or whatever, she explodes. But she doesn't just hit him with power. She also hits him with though like, you know what, you were not in a position to make that choice. Every single court, every single court, every single High Lord had to make brutal, awful decisions and had to do terrible things in order to survive. And maybe he had to play this role, but he was the victim here. How the fuck day you act as though he is the villain in this. You don't have to trust him. You don't have to work with us. You don't have to like us. You have the ability to sell us out to Hybern, but you don't get to say this about him anymore as though he is completely at fault here and not the victim. And I think that there's two things there. One is it still serves the purpose of revealing that she's got everybody's powers to everybody, while also forcing the other High Lords to rethink how they're looking at Rhys because they've come in, like, if we take away the fact that we've been with the court of dreams this whole time, so we're like, we know they're good guys. And we know their motivations. To the other High Lords. He has been the big bad, and he did sell himself out to Amarantha and then immediately disappear afterwards and all that kind of stuff. So there's a lot of them that are still struggling with that Amarantha’s whore label.

40:43  

Holly: Yeah. And then like from the outside, it looks like he's just swooped in and stolen Feyre from Tamlin at their wedding. It doesn't look good from the outside.

40:55 

Harley: We kind of get a workaround of that, in that he has been working with some of the other High Lords behind the scenes. So they actually know more about him being a good guy than they let on. But I think that that would have been a really good moment of reframing for them where they go, ‘Yeah, I really haven't given you a chance to be anything other than the bad guy.’ Or the like, ‘Okay, I have thrown all these labels on you. And I don't necessarily have to trust you. But I do have to question what I know about you.’ I also think it would make a lot more sense in terms of Tarquin, who's the Spring Court?

41:34 

Holly: Summer, he's the Summer Court.

41:36 

Harley: I do that every fucking time. Apparently, I can't tell my seasons apart. I’m like, hot time of year, cold time of year, same thing. So Summer is betrayed by Rhys and Feyre and they get sent blood rubies, which are basically like, a death threat. But he rescinds them eventually. But I think that this would have been a really good point for him to go, maybe there's a reason why you guys are so untrusting. And to kind of just crack that little kernel in his mind so that when they show up at Summer and help, there's a reason why he's been like, Hang on, this is the last bit of proof I needed. I already had that seed of doubt. And now you come to the rescue and saved me and maybe we can have our rubies back except for Amren’s. Because no one's fucking with that one. I just think that that's something that she's almost done well, but hasn't quite…

42:29 

Holly: Hasn't quite followed through. And I don't know if it's because she's decided that it needs to be a little bit more palatable for a wider audience, or if it's an editor's choice, or if it's just a lack of knowledge, like you were saying before, that it does feel like it's hollowed. And it's kind of doing a disservice to people who have been in those sorts of situations.

42:52 

Harley: I think it's also doing a disservice to the power of what she has done by making him the victim.

42:57 

Holly: Yes, you are so on track here and then you've just gone and derailed it. Not dissimilar to how we have derailed this conversation that many times.

43:08 

Harley: Speaking of derailing, we are going to derail this conversation or real hard by splitting this episode in two and making you will wait until next week to see how this conversation ends.

43:19 

Holly: Pro tip, it ends with soup.

43:21 

Harley: I really wish I could say that she's joking. Sadly, she's not joking.

43:27 

Holly: Yeah, I'm not joking. Well, thank you for listening so far. As always, we appreciate your support five star reviews on Apple podcasts make a huge difference. So please leave one if you're enjoying the podcast so far.

43:35 

Harley: Links and other fun things are in the show notes and you can find us at www.bimbobookclub.com or on all your favorite social media platforms.

43:45 

Holly: Bimbos out.